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codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:57 pm

Let us look at it this way: If the SC had been scrambled for that incident, who among us would've complained?

It wasn't for a bit of invisibri, it wasn't for any artificial reason, there was a goddamn car stall after a monday-to-friday blind corner.
I have no confidence in any racing driver in any series to see a yellow flag and thing "oh, better slow down" and not "Oh I'll only slow down if the guy i'm racing with does first", that's just how they think.

It was a needless risk, and for what? So the hoity-toity F1 series can say it doesn't throw Safety Cars?
So the TV companies won't have to cut down on their post race analysis and just head straight to ads and their next show?

There was no benefit for it, and the way the race was going at that stage, I don't think it would've changed much in the competitive order either, Lewis was still behind Bottas and as we learnt he couldn't exactly cruise past him so it wouldn't have pressured Rosberg or whatever the bullshit conspiracy theory is.

So what exactly did we gain from having 5/6 people risk their lives?

nascarf1indycar · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:58 pm

Gaara wrote:

are we really going to say the drivers are more dangerous then they used to be?

no no, but car failures can happend, and the driver can do nothing about it.

Gaara · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:05 pm

So what you're saying is that the cars fail more then they used to.

nascarf1indycar · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:08 pm

no, what I am saying is that I wouldn't want to be the marshall runover or killed by that 0.0001% of chances that another car suffers a failure that lead it to crash into me pushing another broken car. There is a SC to avoid that.

De Cesaris fan · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:08 pm

kals wrote:

The marshals had plenty of space in the on track action to leave their posts, get across the track and begin working on Sutil's car with time to spare before the first car came by..

I'm not sure about this. There was a fourth marshall who stopped at the side of the track, and then decided he couldn't make it across as well. Then a car came flying around. It would have been a close call if he'd decided to go...

I don't like NASCAR's fake cautions to spice up the racing, but I think F1 was too far in the other direction today. I'm sure Sutil said on the radio that he'd had a problem with the car. There's no reason why somebody else couldn't have had the same problem and ended up in the same place, even under waved yellows.

I can understand marshalls running on the track if the incident has happened early in the race, as they've probably got a good minute before the cars come around again. It just seemed a little risky at that point of the race.

kals · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:16 pm

De Cesaris fan wrote:

kals wrote:

The marshals had plenty of space in the on track action to leave their posts, get across the track and begin working on Sutil's car with time to spare before the first car came by..

I'm not sure about this. There was a fourth marshall who stopped at the side of the track, and then decided he couldn't make it across as well. Then a car came flying around. It would have been a close call if he'd decided to go...

I'll have to rewatch to see this. However, there is a reason for waved yellow flags and drivers should be more light (right) footed and heed those flags.

Gaara · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:19 pm

It's the drivers, they should be more respectful of the yellows.

In the Porsche race there was a number of drivers that looked to be passing under yellow.

nascarf1indycar · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:25 pm

http://en.espnf1.com/germany/motorsport/story/168275.html
Rosberg feared for.... a late SC.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115074
Hamilton feared for.... F1 marshals' safety

more clear?

even Lewis comments about Tom Pryce.

even Fernando says a SC was not good for him but it was the right call to do....

it is the drivers talking... not me.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:37 pm

Gaara wrote:

It's the drivers, they should be more respectful of the yellows.

In the Porsche race there was a number of drivers that looked to be passing under yellow.

That's what you have to reason for when making these kinds of decisions too.
You know drivers try and maximise their advantages in all areas, including Yellow flags.

It's all well to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and say "wow, saved the SC having to come out, well done Charlie" but in the heat of the moment with that car sitting around a blind corner it was a MASSIVE gamble. And it wasn't Charlie Whiting's life we are gambling.

Also please remember this the next time they bring out the SC/keep the SC out when it is easily intermediate conditions.
Driver risks must be over-protected, but Marshals, not so much.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:42 pm

specially because a safety car on that incident would have got me precious points in one of my fantasy leagues

but anyway, if they called SC Hamilton could've tried to pull a good move upon the leaders (or not, who knows what he could do) and get the championship fight closer

kals · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:47 pm

codename_47 wrote:

Gaara wrote:

It's the drivers, they should be more respectful of the yellows.

In the Porsche race there was a number of drivers that looked to be passing under yellow.

That's what you have to reason for when making these kinds of decisions too.
You know drivers try and maximise their advantages in all areas, including Yellow flags.

It's all well to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and say "wow, saved the SC having to come out, well done Charlie" but in the heat of the moment with that car sitting around a blind corner it was a MASSIVE gamble. And it wasn't Charlie Whiting's life we are gambling.

Also please remember this the next time they bring out the SC/keep the SC out when it is easily intermediate conditions.
Driver risks must be over-protected, but Marshals, not so much.

Seriously but, what the hell are you talking about?

You talk as if we're still in the seventies when a young marshal ran across a track on the brow of a blind crest carrying a fire extinguisher not knowing where the next cars were nor their closing speeds... the seventies when drivers had no pit to car radio whereby the drivers could not receive explicit information on the whereabouts of an incident... the seventies where race control only existed to record times, declare winners and sign licenses instead of nowadays where they control everything that happens on circuit with extensive vision from strategically placed cameras, eyes and ears at every marshals post and reports directly to and from teams (and their drivers)...

You are overthinking things, as you always do. Just because something happened once doesn't automatically mean it will happen again. Not every GP is Imola 1994. You learn from these situations happening to ensure correct measures are in place for the future.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:50 pm

kals wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

Gaara wrote:

It's the drivers, they should be more respectful of the yellows.

In the Porsche race there was a number of drivers that looked to be passing under yellow.

That's what you have to reason for when making these kinds of decisions too.
You know drivers try and maximise their advantages in all areas, including Yellow flags.

It's all well to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and say "wow, saved the SC having to come out, well done Charlie" but in the heat of the moment with that car sitting around a blind corner it was a MASSIVE gamble. And it wasn't Charlie Whiting's life we are gambling.

Also please remember this the next time they bring out the SC/keep the SC out when it is easily intermediate conditions.
Driver risks must be over-protected, but Marshals, not so much.

Seriously but, what the hell are you talking about?

OK I'll put it simply:

When I watch F1 I want to enjoy close racing, not be forced to watch through my fingers people who aren't the drivers needlessly risking their lives.

That's not part of the entertainment imo

F1 messed up today and they need to learn from it.

nascarf1indycar · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:52 pm

LucasWheldon wrote:

but anyway, if they called SC Hamilton could've tried to pull a good move upon the leaders (or not, who knows what he could do) and get the championship fight closer

that's why the SC wasn't called, a german driver in a german car winning the german gp.... good publicity for F1, they needed to fix that win for monday newspaper covers.

nascarf1indycar · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:55 pm

also, don't you feel forced to read that cheap sign "Bernie say think before you drive" or something like that, like we all gonna think aw good bernie poor him in a trial. f him to be honest. bastard wanting to drop monza for no paying enought fee, really? REALLY???

kals · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:55 pm

codename_47 wrote:

kals wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

That's what you have to reason for when making these kinds of decisions too.
You know drivers try and maximise their advantages in all areas, including Yellow flags.

It's all well to sit here with the benefit of hindsight and say "wow, saved the SC having to come out, well done Charlie" but in the heat of the moment with that car sitting around a blind corner it was a MASSIVE gamble. And it wasn't Charlie Whiting's life we are gambling.

Also please remember this the next time they bring out the SC/keep the SC out when it is easily intermediate conditions.
Driver risks must be over-protected, but Marshals, not so much.

Seriously but, what the hell are you talking about?

OK I'll put it simply:

When I watch F1 I want to enjoy close racing, not be forced to watch through my fingers people who aren't the drivers needlessly risking their lives.

That's not part of the entertainment imo

F1 messed up today and they need to learn from it.

I edited my original answer. Have a look through and let me know what you think.

We live in the information and communication age. Marshalling at a GP is a lot safer than you are assuming. F1 didn't mess up today, your opinion and beliefs are antiquated and need to be updated.

Bleu · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:56 pm

SC for Massa was basically because I think medical car had to stop there and just watch if he's ok. And as that happened the car wouldn't have made a lap through before the field completes the second lap.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:57 pm

Ironically I think drivers had a lot more respect for yellow flags in those days than I do today.

Fine, this isn't going anywhere, I've said my piece.

All I'll say is hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Bleu · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:58 pm

9:20 onwards is the F3000 crash which was mentioned.

kals · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:06 pm

codename_47 wrote:

All I'll say is hindsight is a wonderful thing.

You do realise you are contradicting your own argument? I really enjoy the conversations you and I have but you rarely see how easy you are to prove wrong. You leave yourself so open. I'd appreciate continuing this on if you could provide some constructive feedback to my previous comments.

Ian-S · PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:07 pm

I just watched it on the BBC, it was borderline, and I think make you may be mistaken over how much info marshalls have at their disposal trackside kals, we have more info at home on our sofas.

On another subject, I thought the Bernie sign was saying 'think before you bribe' must go and get my eyes tested

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