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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:38 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
maybe we should use TARDIS to go back and mess senna's gearbox so he couldn't move from the grid


And how many more would die in his place due to the improvements in safety that were pushed through as a result of that terrible weekend?

You can't change the past no matter how much you want to....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:46 pm 
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codename_47 wrote:
I think Italian law has a lot to do with it tbh.

Their "someone must be blamed!" attitude to accidents led to a lot of people in F1 with answers closing up and a lot of other people assuming there was a big conspiracy theory as a result (pictures disappearing from the on-board, changing details on telemetry etc )

If it had happened in another country perhaps there'd be a few more answers around when people aren't paranoid about saying the wrong thing and landing themselves in legal trouble.


Why is any of that a negative? Turn it around. As a result of the Italian justice system a lot of additional pressure and focus was put on F1 which lead to greater safety improvements which impacted many other forms of Motorsport globally from then on.

The glass isn't always half empty you know.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:47 pm 
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codename_47 wrote:
LucasWheldon wrote:
maybe we should use TARDIS to go back and mess senna's gearbox so he couldn't move from the grid


And how many more would die in his place due to the improvements in safety that were pushed through as a result of that terrible weekend?

You can't change the past no matter how much you want to....


well, I have in mind the idea that Senna got very emotional with the death of Ratzenberger, maybe he would go for more safety

I also believe that senna didn't died because of lack of safety, but more of bad luck after the crash

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:53 pm 
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kals wrote:
codename_47 wrote:
I think Italian law has a lot to do with it tbh.

Their "someone must be blamed!" attitude to accidents led to a lot of people in F1 with answers closing up and a lot of other people assuming there was a big conspiracy theory as a result (pictures disappearing from the on-board, changing details on telemetry etc )

If it had happened in another country perhaps there'd be a few more answers around when people aren't paranoid about saying the wrong thing and landing themselves in legal trouble.


Why is any of that a negative? Turn it around. As a result of the Italian justice system a lot of additional pressure and focus was put on F1 which lead to greater safety improvements which impacted many other forms of Motorsport globally from then on.

The glass isn't always half empty you know.


Wouldn't say I meant it negatively or positively, it's just a fact that their slightly harsher laws on accidents led to a few people in F1 being silent or being guarded about what information they released in fear of being prosecuted.

That in turn led to conspiracy theory idiots (ok, that's a bit negative :p ) making up theories based on this radio silence.
And like all conspiracy theories, the made up shit becomes bandied about because it's much, much more an interesting story than the banality of the events that actually happened.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:55 pm 
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That's true. The point I'm trying to make though is that there is arguably a greater good that's come out of the Italian justice system post-Imola 1994 than people are thinking. Instead people are focusing on the pure negatives of that country's legal behaviour.

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Last edited by kals on Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:57 pm 
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Something would have happened anyway, MadMax and Bernie got together after and agreed it should never happen again (a F1 driver dying live on tv), they would have taken a more pro-active role regardless of where it happened, remember this was at a time where the FIA had a loud bark but no teeth, your point is valid but the same result would have happened anywhere.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:27 pm 
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Ian, my point is that the Italian legal system was (arguably) partially responsible. I'm not trying to say they were the only reason for the additional safety focus. You're right about Max and Bernie colluding but it's naive of us to think that the Italian legal system's draconian laws didn't have some form of positive impact upon what happened moving forward.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:42 pm 
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True, but when you complain about them not starting races in the rain, remember where the mentality partly came from ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Spa 98 wasn't it? :?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:53 pm 
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Oh shut up with your logic :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:56 pm 
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Ian-S wrote:
True, but when you complain about them not starting races in the rain, remember where the mentality partly came from ;)


Japan 1994?

Edit - lol Codename beat me to it!

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:59 pm 
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I had a senior moment you see, now shut up I said :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:04 am 
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Even without the freak deaths at Imola, I believe 1994 was a turning point anyway, as evidenced by the fair amount of injuries early season compared to the previous years.

The only regret I still have from it is that the old Imola layout, with a SAFER wall closer to the track, would be super-spectacular and reasonably safe to race in today's cockpits. Instead we now have tracks that give no sense of speed as the closest reference point is miles away from the road.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:20 am 
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I still don't understand that, although they couldn't do anything about the location of the wall, they never even thought about putting in a gravel trap and tyre wall before it, just leaving a trampy bit of grass and then some unhelpful tarmac 8O

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:37 am 
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As Berger says in the below interview, they just left it at that and didn't even think of putting in a chicane or something.



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:39 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
I still don't understand that, although they couldn't do anything about the location of the wall, they never even thought about putting in a gravel trap and tyre wall before it, just leaving a trampy bit of grass and then some unhelpful tarmac 8O


A gravel trap at a 180mph+ corner is not a viable solution.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:52 am 
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gkmotorsport wrote:
The best (worst?) conspiracy I read was the sniper one - the sum total of the evidence was a hole on his helmet seen after the accident. It was quite clearly just the hole where a closable air inlet had been broken off, but that doesn't stop some people.


wtf are you on with that one?

The hole on his helmet is the trace of what really killed Senna.

The impact itself was nothing of major scale. For instance, Schumacher@Silverstone99 was probably way harder from a deceleration POV. I didn't see the telemetry of both accidents, but I would bet Schumacher had a lot more G's involved than Ayrton's.

Senna did not crash at a sharp angle and he didn't became stationary briefly, so there was a lot of energy dissipation on his accident.

What killed Senna was the suspension arm that broke and went into his head. Yes, he died because his head was impaled. Berger even told people he knew Senna was dead much sooner than official announcement because he saw Ayrton ridiculously swollen head.

According to Adrian Newey, the steering column didn't not break. Obvriously, due to Italian law, Adrian would never say otherwise, but he said Senna simply went over a big bump, unsettled the rear and Senna didn't correct properly.

You can rule out lack of downforce with it. Even if he had a loss of downforce, it wouldn't have been much and Tamburello is not even a real corner. You can very easily corner it flat out even with no downforce at all


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:02 pm 
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There were two holes in Ayton's helmet, one which was a small narrow cut which is where the suspension penetrated and the other was an air vent (which most for a very long time believed was the hole the suspension created). So gkmotorsport is correct.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Roland's the day before was much more violent, he hit the wall virtually unabated and at a near 90 degree angle.

Poor Senna was just a victim of the random flight of pieces after the accident.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:25 pm 
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coldtyre wrote:
Even without the freak deaths at Imola, I believe 1994 was a turning point anyway, as evidenced by the fair amount of injuries early season compared to the previous years.

The only regret I still have from it is that the old Imola layout, with a SAFER wall closer to the track, would be super-spectacular and reasonably safe to race in today's cockpits. Instead we now have tracks that give no sense of speed as the closest reference point is miles away from the road.


"Funny" thing is that they've revamped Imola in such a way now that it has become more dangerous again than back then (an angled wall at the part with the highest speed, what?)


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