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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:33 am 
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I think you need something stronger than Armco in locations so close to trees. The only circuit that doesn't seem to have problems with Armco is Monaco, I've seen Armco fail at British and american tracks. Not sure let mans would pay for safer barrier and tyres could throw a car back onto the circuit at the speeds involved. Is there space to place a line of concrete blocks behind the Armco? Not a nice thing to hit but better than hitting a tree.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:25 am 
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deggis wrote:
OT: Nice, Autosport has finally implemented "pay per article" system (1 eur).


Here you go :thumbsup: I read this earlier, it is worth a read and the final paragraph is very apt.

Gary Watkins wrote:
Allan Simonsen's sad death will undoubtedly reopen the safety debate at Le Mans. In fact, it already has: I know drivers who are talking about petitions and such like in the wake of last weekend's 24 Hours.

Yet surely now is not the time for some knee-jerk reaction. A measured approach is required at the same time as a renewed acknowledgement that the Circuit de la Sarthe is always going to be a more dangerous place than your average race track.

It has to be by its very nature. Two thirds of its length is public road and the speeds attained — both on the Mulsanne Straight and in its myriad fast corners — are so much higher than most venues these days.

Yet if the track was just any other racing circuit, would the Le Mans 24 Hours have the same mystic, appeal and cache that it does today? Of course not.

Imagine if the world's premier endurance race had moved away from the Circuit de la Sarthe. And it's not such a preposterous idea: there were real concerns at the Automobile Club de l'Ouest in the 1970s that it would be unable to keep racing on the public roads and was buying up land adjacent to the Mulsanne Straight to cover off that eventuality.

It is impossible to tell what would have happened if the event had ended up moving to somewhere like Paul Ricard or onto an elongated version of the Le Mans-Bugatti circuit. But it is unlikely that we'd still be calling the Le Mans 24 Hours the biggest motor race in the world.

The challenge of Le Mans is not just about going twice around the clock one weekend in the middle of June. An equal part of the challenge is provided by the 8.47-mile circuit.

The term "endurance classic" is bandied about with abandon by writers like me. We have the tendency to prefix any race with a bit of history that's of a suitable distance with those words. I'm sure, over the years, I've given the tag to the sportscar enduros at Le Mans, Sebring, Daytona, Spa-Francorchamps and the Nurburgring, as well those at Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen.

Yet from those classics, to my mind, the only truly great races are Le Mans and the Sebring 12 Hours, though I reckon I might one day elevate the Nurburgring 24 Hours to greatness. For the moment, though, it is very much the new kid on the block — it's only been around since 1970 for Christ's sake.

Le Mans, Sebring and the Nurburgring-Nordschleife are special tracks that represent a unique challenge in their own individual ways, one that is at odds with the modern world. Spa-Francorchamps, Road Atlanta and Watkins Glen are all good, even fantastic race circuits, but they aren't so far removed from your common-or-garden track. Remember when the Istanbul Otodrom was lauded as the new Spa?

I'm not arguing that Le Mans should remain as some kind of museum piece and that modern advances in safety should not be applied to the place. Nor has that been the case over the past quarter of a century or more: the ACO hasn't turned a blind eye to safety and has constantly evolved the circuit.

Don't forget about safety improvements at the right-hander at Indianapolis through the noughties. Nor should we forget that Tertre Rouge, the scene of poor Allan's accident, was changed in 2007 to allow for more run-off on the entry.

We don't yet know the exact cause of Simonsen's death, but there is evidence to suggest that he died because his Aston Martin struck the barrier at a point where a tree was more or less abutting up to the safety structure. Corrugated crash barriers are designed to offer a certain amount of give and, in this instance, it seems that they couldn't.

There appears to have been a tragic oversight here. Trees grow and think how much their girth has increased since the three-tier crash barriers were installed on the Mulsanne Straight for 1988.

Whether or not Simonsen's death was caused by the proximity of the trees to the barriers, their positioning at Tertre Rouge and the initial section of the Mulsanne must be re-examined. If the famous line of poplars, which once had white stripes painted on their trunks to help guide the drivers down the straight, have to come down, then so be it.

The ACO needs to examine every weapon in the modern safety armoury. That could mean the addition of more tyre barriers or perhaps the SAFER or Tecpro systems employed elsewhere around the world.

Major revisions aren't required to the layout of the track, just a continuation of the safety improvements that have been ongoing since the 1980s.

I knew one driver who wouldn't have wanted changes to the Circuit de la Sarthe and made no secret of the fact that Le Mans was his favourite circuit. His name was Allan Simonsen.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:38 am 
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kals wrote:
deggis wrote:
OT: Nice, Autosport has finally implemented "pay per article" system (1 eur).


Here you go :thumbsup: I read this earlier, it is worth a read and the final paragraph is very apt.

I paid for it already, and it wasn't sarcastic comment: previously these Autosport _Plus_ articles required montly/annual subscription. There was recently a survey if I remember correctly, I guess they listened :p /OT


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:09 am 
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Awesome, might be supporting Porsche.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:39 am 
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Good to see Webber back in sportscars, I'll be rooting for him.

Oh and Neel Jani has also signed up for Porsche.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:25 pm 
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http://i.imgur.com/nlPldSL.jpg

Love a filthy race car. Link because it's MASSIVE res.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 2:51 pm 
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Scotty wrote:
ellis wrote:
To me the bigger issue is the barriers folding in even minor impacts


That's what they're supposed to do. If they didn't buckle, all the energy of the accident would go through the cockpit, rather than transferring into the guardrail.

Anyway, they mentioned in the coverage that the guardrail failures are due to the fact Le Mans is a giant sand belt, so all the posts are just buried in sand, instead of concreted in. Well, that's what the commentary told me. They also told me that Simonsen was alive and fine when I went to bed so who knows what gear they're on.


Armco isn't meant to do that. Armco is meant to keep the car inside the confines of the circuit. We have proper absorption barriers available for that stuff. Le Mans uses concrete blocks (which sure as shit don't absorb anything) on the Bugatti circuit, and metal armco on the public road.

And I've never seen any track in the world, in any country, with any series, that has as many armco issues at Le Mans. The amrco folds in MINOR impacts now, nevermind proper ones. And the lack of any sort of absorption barriers at several points of the circuit still scares me. The Porsche curves concrete is scary, but kinda ok because of the angles of it, but the end of the circuit where the Porsche went off a couple of years ago is fucking terrifying - the wall is at a horrible angle, and the impact can only be fucking MASSIVE, and even after the Porsche and Corvette went off, they haven't even put tyres there. And even in the esses, it's single rows of tyres in an area that's suffered some huge accidents over the years.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:46 pm 
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Class act, Porsche. Class act.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:04 pm 
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This'll sound harsh but I'm sure those who have been up to date with the lolliBoP will understand, but I really don't think Aston deserved to win. It would've been nice to see them take the win purely because of Allans passing, but in reality, they were unbalanced to hell and shouldn't have been that strong. It was nice to see Porsche take the win and quite unexpected. Very very classy video by them.

I guess to sum up the rest of the race -

P1 - It was nice to see Tom K and McNish get another. Duval is pretty awesome too, so a popular victory all round. The #1 car had been quite lucky the last few years with zero issues, so I guess they were due some. But changing an alternator in 45 minutes, whilst it takes Toyota 1 hour 45 minutes shows why Audi are where they are. #3 Audi I just struggle to care about as I really don't think Gene is deserving of that seat. Toyota are looking worryingly like the Formula 1 program, but without the money. Audi took 3 to Spa, 1 in Le Mans spec, and 2 in Spa spec. Toyota didn't even bring 2 updated cars to Spa. And for Le Mans, the #8 was running an updated 2012 tub. You have to question the commitment already when they are in the second year and are still using old cars. They also proved last year that the regulations were pretty balanced, so it wasn't very good seeing them get a fuel break which gives them an extra 2 laps. The fuel stints should be around equal, and the balance should be on speed. Toyota have proven they can be as fast as a diesel, and they shouldn't get a performance break because they didn't update the car as well as Audi.

P2 I'm struggling to care about, because it's all the same now. Half of the cars are branded now, and engines are just generic Nissan units. I don't care what anyone says, it isn't variety when you start calling ORECAs Alpines and Oaks Morgans. But I suppose they at least managed to brand the chassis by paying for it - the Caterham is just a sticker on a Zytek, then you've got Mike Gascoyne saying they've got a tough year making parts for Le Mans. Yeah, printing stickers is hard Mike! If Lotus are insisting on running that car, then punt them into P1 like the works teams are meant to be.

GT was cool except for the balance. Astons were like rocket ships out of the corners. The Ferraris looked a bit poor. The Corvettes had no straight line speed, and no balance in the corners. The Vipers were pretty good for the first year really, so it'll be cool to see where they end up. They looked very old school covered in dirt and tape. Love a dirty race car.

Not a classic Le Mans at all. It was good to see Tom extend his record, it was good to see McNish get another win, it was good to see Duval take one, it was good to see Audi step up to the challenge and prove why they are the best, and it was good to see Porsche overcome the awful balancing. But all of those good things are overshadowed by the generic race filled with Safety Cars, and more importantly, by Allans death.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:13 pm 
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ellis wrote:
This'll sound harsh but I'm sure those who have been up to date with the lolliBoP will understand, but I really don't think Aston deserved to win. It would've been nice to see them take the win purely because of Allans passing, but in reality, they were unbalanced to hell and shouldn't have been that strong. It was nice to see Porsche take the win and quite unexpected. Very very classy video by them.

I guess to sum up the rest of the race -

P1 - It was nice to see Tom K and McNish get another. Duval is pretty awesome too, so a popular victory all round. The #1 car had been quite lucky the last few years with zero issues, so I guess they were due some. But changing an alternator in 45 minutes, whilst it takes Toyota 1 hour 45 minutes shows why Audi are where they are. #3 Audi I just struggle to care about as I really don't think Gene is deserving of that seat. Toyota are looking worryingly like the Formula 1 program, but without the money. Audi took 3 to Spa, 1 in Le Mans spec, and 2 in Spa spec. Toyota didn't even bring 2 updated cars to Spa. And for Le Mans, the #8 was running an updated 2012 tub. You have to question the commitment already when they are in the second year and are still using old cars. They also proved last year that the regulations were pretty balanced, so it wasn't very good seeing them get a fuel break which gives them an extra 2 laps. The fuel stints should be around equal, and the balance should be on speed. Toyota have proven they can be as fast as a diesel, and they shouldn't get a performance break because they didn't update the car as well as Audi.

P2 I'm struggling to care about, because it's all the same now. Half of the cars are branded now, and engines are just generic Nissan units. I don't care what anyone says, it isn't variety when you start calling ORECAs Alpines and Oaks Morgans. But I suppose they at least managed to brand the chassis by paying for it - the Caterham is just a sticker on a Zytek, then you've got Mike Gascoyne saying they've got a tough year making parts for Le Mans. Yeah, printing stickers is hard Mike! If Lotus are insisting on running that car, then punt them into P1 like the works teams are meant to be.

GT was cool except for the balance. Astons were like rocket ships out of the corners. The Ferraris looked a bit poor. The Corvettes had no straight line speed, and no balance in the corners. The Vipers were pretty good for the first year really, so it'll be cool to see where they end up. They looked very old school covered in dirt and tape. Love a dirty race car.

Not a classic Le Mans at all. It was good to see Tom extend his record, it was good to see McNish get another win, it was good to see Duval take one, it was good to see Audi step up to the challenge and prove why they are the best, and it was good to see Porsche overcome the awful balancing. But all of those good things are overshadowed by the generic race filled with Safety Cars, and more importantly, by Allans death.

Great summary. Can't say fairer than that :thumbsup:

Edit: Don't thank me, thank the man himself!


Last edited by EsbenT on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:01 pm 
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Ellis, you are a credit to this forum with your input. That's why we are glad you went to Le Mans lol.

Now on another serious note, that was an excellent video from Porsche, recognising the circumstances at Le Mans.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:31 am 
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Greaves Motorsport facebook wrote:
BREAKING NEWS! #42 has been promoted to THIRD place at Le Mans following the exclusion of the #26 car "as the capacity of its petrol tank has been found to be illegal"


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:44 pm 
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ellis wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/nlPldSL.jpg

Love a filthy race car. Link because it's MASSIVE res.


A (very bad) joke: "I like my women just the way I like my race cars - dirty and used by three guys over night."

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Godspeed, Allan.


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