2013 Formula 1 Petronas Malaysia Grand Prix

SBan83 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:28 pm

Schumifan wrote:

Hotdogger wrote:

Philthy82 wrote:

IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIKE TEAM ORDERS. The point is if one driver is told to slow by the team and the other ignores those orders, it's neither respectful to your team nor particularly hard to beat your teammate who's been told to slow up. That's about as ballsy, gritty and "killer instinct" as bringing a gun to a knife fight.

Agreed. If Vettel had told his team, 'No, I won't follow this order' and Webber was aware of that, I could somewhat respect Vettel for this so called killer instinct that his fanboys are chanting on about. But to pounce on Webber when he was under the impression that they were holding position basically makes it pure back stabbing and hardly something to be commended for.

I'm one of the people who mentioned killer instinct so I assume you're referring to me - first of all, I'm not a fanboy in the slightest. I'm just stating my opinion. Secondly, I'm not saying it's fair, moral, sportsmanlike or anything like that either, because it's not. What I am saying is that it's the kind of move that differentiates drivers like Vettel and Webber - he knew exactly what he was doing at the time (whatever he said afterwards) and he knew he'd wind Webber up and get away with it. It shows, like many of the most successful F1 drivers before him, that he'll do anything if it means walking away with more points. That kind of thing pisses off a lot of people, but I admire it.

Honestly, I like Webber. I like the fact that he's usually honest and straightforward. But this is F1, not gentleman's club racing, and when you've got guys like Vettel/Alonso/Hamilton out there there's not much room left for the nice guys.

I wasn't really referring to you in particular as much as the collective whole glorifying Vettel for what he did. I'm not looking for gentleman racing either but hate seeing stuff like this, all the same.

ryan86 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:32 pm

aerogi wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

Well, yeah if they wanna hand the title to Alonso

It's an interesting dilemma tho. They gave him a clear instruction and he disobeyed it, but how do you reprimand him?
Fine is pointless, he's rich. Anything competitive will hurt the team in the title race too...

Do you just wait until he's leading with Mark 1-2 then order him to let Mark win?
Do you expect him to listen to that? You'd need to turn down his engine and not Mark's for that to happen...

Or they can ruin his last pit stop to do so.

That would be the height of stupidity. The situation already appears fractured, but doing that would only cause more and if you cause more infighting you'll probably see Massa, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton or Rosberg walking away with the crown.

Vassago · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:34 pm

kals wrote:

Are we? I'm not, and I'm not sure where I was in my post. I'm making a point about a driver showing a ruthless side. So I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove by arguing something that is totally irrelevant to the point I made.

The ruthless side which was shown against a teammate. Since there are no team orders between various teams on the grid, it doesn't matter how Vettel races the other 20 cars out there. And nobody has praised this Vettel's ruthless side and compared him to Senna in that department until Sepang where suddenly everyone keeps talking about it like it emerged out of nowhere. Except for Istanbul (surprise, surprise, with Webber again) and Monza vs Alonso Vettel wasn't close to being ruthless against anyone, so it's obvious he hasn't earned that ruthless reputation against his peers and probably never will.

kals · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:37 pm

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that then. What's done is done. I think it is totally irrelevant as to whom it was against. You don't. I'm fine with that.

Vassago · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:41 pm

Couldn't derail my logic, huh? It's never completely irrelevant how far can you push the limits against your teammate compared to the rest of the grid.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:44 pm

aerogi wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

Well, yeah if they wanna hand the title to Alonso

It's an interesting dilemma tho. They gave him a clear instruction and he disobeyed it, but how do you reprimand him?
Fine is pointless, he's rich. Anything competitive will hurt the team in the title race too...

Do you just wait until he's leading with Mark 1-2 then order him to let Mark win?
Do you expect him to listen to that? You'd need to turn down his engine and not Mark's for that to happen...

if they are 1-2, with a clear lead before the rest, they can ask vettel to move for Webber.

Or they can ruin his last pit stop to do so.

If they don't plan to do this they'd better hope there's no situation that requires them to stack the pit stops in 2013
Otherwise Webber just might do it for them....

Ferrari · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:46 pm

codename_47 wrote:

They gave him a clear instruction and he disobeyed it, but how do you reprimand him?

He shouldn't be reprimand by Red Bull. Your disrespecting a driver that has won you three titles. Which may alienate him to the point that he'll leave Red Bull.

kals · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:49 pm

Vassago wrote:

Couldn't derail my logic, huh? It's never completely irrelevant how far can you push the limits against your teammate compared to the rest of the grid.

Yeah ok, because you did such a GREAT job derailing my logic :roll:

What's got into you today? You've been around this board for years and I've never seen you this argumentative. And over what? A minor point. I don't get why you've decided to get on your soapbox over this.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:49 pm

I vill NOT follow orderz....

Worst German ever tbh.

Woodski · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:52 pm

someone pissed in vassago's tymbark this evening.

phil1993 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:53 pm

I think it's more people having a problem with Vettel than actually what he did. Sure, it's not hugely ethical but as has already been discussed, Vettel will be praised should he beat Alonso/Raikkonen/whoever by less than 7 points come Brazil.

It also seems that when Webber ignores team orders (Britain 2011, Brazil 2012) or the team favours Vettel (Abu Dhabi 2012, justifiably) there's this attitude of 'yeah, you blaady go and get em Mark!' and I think it stems back to the incidents of Turkey/Britain 2010. When Vettel is favoured it's a 'how dare they!' attitude. I'm not saying Vettel was 100% justified in his actions, but there's double standards on behalf of both drivers, the team and their respective fans.

It's a psychology that has to be ingrained inside of Webber's mind, as proved by his comments throughout his time alongside Vettel. The idea of Vettel as a clear #1 and Webber as #2 has been created - even though when you look through history this is not the case, and if it is it's only usually when one driver has a title shot. Besides, and again this does not justify Vettel's actions, if you've won 3 titles against your team-mate's 0, you should feel you have the right to being the #1. After all, Fernando does, doesn't he?

It's a nice problem for Red Bull to have because they've won both titles for the last three years but there are several cases of hypocrisy and myths when it comes to driver treatment at the team.

a7b7u · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:22 pm

Webber disobeyed team orders yes but Webber never took advantage of a situation where Vettel was in the believe of not being in a racing situation. Vettel did that and Vettel created this advantage fully on purpose by not making his intentions clear towards his team. That is the deciding point.

That has also nothing to do with the sense of the word ruthless. You can be ruthless but stay honest especially within your team. He should have just radioed back to the team "Fuck it. I keep racing" and everything would be fine. But then he probably would not have won the race because Webber was better that day.

Karan · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:30 pm

phil1993 wrote:

I think it's more people having a problem with Vettel than actually what he did. Sure, it's not hugely ethical but as has already been discussed, Vettel will be praised should he beat Alonso/Raikkonen/whoever by less than 7 points come Brazil.

It also seems that when Webber ignores team orders (Britain 2011, Brazil 2012) or the team favours Vettel (Abu Dhabi 2012, justifiably) there's this attitude of 'yeah, you blaady go and get em Mark!' and I think it stems back to the incidents of Turkey/Britain 2010. When Vettel is favoured it's a 'how dare they!' attitude. I'm not saying Vettel was 100% justified in his actions, but there's double standards on behalf of both drivers, the team and their respective fans.

It's a psychology that has to be ingrained inside of Webber's mind, as proved by his comments throughout his time alongside Vettel. The idea of Vettel as a clear #1 and Webber as #2 has been created - even though when you look through history this is not the case, and if it is it's only usually when one driver has a title shot. Besides, and again this does not justify Vettel's actions, if you've won 3 titles against your team-mate's 0, you should feel you have the right to being the #1. After all, Fernando does, doesn't he?

It's a nice problem for Red Bull to have because they've won both titles for the last three years but there are several cases of hypocrisy and myths when it comes to driver treatment at the team.

Great post there Phil. Mark seems to have taken on this underdog mentality so that when he goes against team orders, he gets hailed like some hero that's beaten the ultimate injustice. Whereas when Seb does it, with all the success he's had, it's suddenly disrespectful and unacceptable.

Not saying either is right or wrong, but it's interesting how the public perception of these two characters invokes a very different response to a similiar action

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:54 pm

Hold on a second: are people still blaming Vettel for being selfish/disobedient, while this brought us one of the best battles ever seen these late years? And finish line drama? And good-old spectacular rivalry?

We're spectators. No matter the politics behind it, I damn well prefer them to chose the option that gives me the most action, rather than something sad and weak like Nico's fate that race.

Justin Time · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:57 pm

coldtyre, I appreciate and like the racing action that ensued, but I condemn the mindset and behavior on Vettel's part that lead to it. What he did, goes against my morals and ethics. That's the difference.

RtN · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:04 pm

If the One-Eyed King is to be believed, they have already made up.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:07 pm

@Justin, I understand that.

In any case, this story has brought quite a light on F1. People who don't watch the races came to me and asked about what happened, as the general media emphasised the way this victory was acquired.

I think this might benefit the sport a little bit. Human stories like this are more relatable to the general public than battles and strategies.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:45 pm

Justin Time wrote:

coldtyre, I appreciate and like the racing action that ensued, but I condemn the mindset and behavior on Vettel's part that lead to it. What he did, goes against my morals and ethics. That's the difference.

I condem the mindset on Red Bull's part that thought it necessary to call off the racing during round 2 of the championship.

But then I'll never be happy when team orders are issued even if my favourite driver benefits
(Still feel a bit guilty about Spa 1998 even though I know it was the right call in those terrible conditions! )

kals · PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:18 am

RtN wrote:

If the One-Eyed King is to be believed, they have already made up.

Seb probably sent Mark a signed photo of a Championship trophy.

bigears · PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:22 am

I did watch the GP on SkyGo with no subtitles and I never knew about the team orders over the radio and commentatory.

What a shitstorm it has caused afterwards!

When was the last time a team banned a driver from racing? Based on John Watson's comment for RBR to give Vettel a race ban?

I only can think of Senna at the 1984 Italian GP after his secret talks with Lotus and Ted Toleman got cross with him and took away what Senna really wanted, go racing!

But then at the end of the season, he left for Lotus anyway.

TBK-Light.com

2013 Formula 1 Petronas Malaysia Grand Prix

Who is online