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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:53 pm 
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I was getting ready to shit on that but it's actually a reasonable list. It's better than what the likes of Autosport usually do in taking the basic standings and shuffling one or two of the drivers about.

The only two things I could object to are Alonso and Hamilton being as low as they are. And maybe they could be kinder to Pic.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:17 pm 
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I'm debating whether to put Bianchi and Bottas in my top 10. This year it's basically Vettel > Group including Lotus, Webber, Alonso, Mercedes, Hulkenberg > rest > Chilton

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:00 pm 
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phil1993 wrote:
I'm debating whether to put Bianchi and Bottas in my top 10. This year it's basically Vettel > Group including Lotus, Webber, Alonso, Mercedes, Hulkenberg > rest > Chilton

I don't really see Vettel ahead in driver performance this year. He didn't even have to push most of the time since his car was so much faster than everyone elses, and as a consequence, also made few mistakes.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Frankly the article gets credence for listing Maldonado at the bottom.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Justin Time wrote:
phil1993 wrote:
I'm debating whether to put Bianchi and Bottas in my top 10. This year it's basically Vettel > Group including Lotus, Webber, Alonso, Mercedes, Hulkenberg > rest > Chilton

I don't really see Vettel ahead in driver performance this year. He didn't even have to push most of the time since his car was so much faster than everyone elses, and as a consequence, also made few mistakes.


Just out of curiosity, who would you have as #1?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:31 pm 
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There's really no-one else. And Vettel was superior enough to win the constructors title on his own - and out-scored his team-mate if you only count the scores from Spa onwards.

Red Bull were good - Webber proves this. Vettel and Red Bull were on a different level - but both parts made the whole.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Exactly. If it was all about the Red Bull, then why did Vettel beat his team mate so easily?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:19 pm 
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kals wrote:
Exactly. If it was all about the Red Bull, then why did Vettel beat his team mate so easily?

Put someone who gets along with the Pirellis a bit better than Webber (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, maybe even Rosberg), gets the same support from the team and a car that actually wont break down or loose a wheel in the second Red Bull and we can talk (which of course Red Bull won't do - Ricciardo over Kimi). Red Bull was just too dominant this season and a variety of other drivers would haven been able to achieve the same results in the Red Bull - in Vettels position. That's my opinion.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:41 am 
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Justin Time wrote:
kals wrote:
Exactly. If it was all about the Red Bull, then why did Vettel beat his team mate so easily?

Put someone who gets along with the Pirellis a bit better than Webber (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, maybe even Rosberg), gets the same support from the team and a car that actually wont break down or loose a wheel in the second Red Bull and we can talk (which of course Red Bull won't do - Ricciardo over Kimi). Red Bull was just too dominant this season and a variety of other drivers would haven been able to achieve the same results in the Red Bull - in Vettels position. That's my opinion.


Like Jenson Button.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:01 am 
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I was going to make a post here, but realized that it just serves no purpose. Still thinking, after this year, that Vettel is a 'mediocre' F1-driver? Oh well.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:40 am 
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Justin Time wrote:
kals wrote:
Exactly. If it was all about the Red Bull, then why did Vettel beat his team mate so easily?

Put someone who gets along with the Pirellis a bit better than Webber (Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, maybe even Rosberg), gets the same support from the team and a car that actually wont break down or loose a wheel in the second Red Bull and we can talk (which of course Red Bull won't do - Ricciardo over Kimi). Red Bull was just too dominant this season and a variety of other drivers would haven been able to achieve the same results in the Red Bull - in Vettels position. That's my opinion.


Vettel won the title in 2010 with Bridgestones, and some unreliability - Bahrain, Australia and Korea, at least. Last year too, points were dropped due to alternator failures (Valencia, Monza) whereas his main rival had faultless reliability, one Grosjean related incident cost him points but Japan was on Alonso.

Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen were all quick with other types of tyre, they've adapted to the Pirellis too - as has Vettel, arguably better than anyone else, or simply using the strengths at his disposal - either way, that's the mark of a top driver - and, as you say, separates him from Webber who he has shaded fairly consistently but even at the end of the career is no slouch.

Whether a handful of other top drivers might (and it's still speculation) have been able to mirror his results this season doesn't mean that he isn't one of these top drivers. Disliking Vettel and even his success is one thing, but doubting his ability looks quite silly these days, I'm afraid.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:51 am 
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The Silverstone punctures changed everything. Since they started changing tyres it only went up for RBR(Vettel), while for others down.
Just look at the 1st half of season, there were manny different winners and results, but the Silverstone failures made a one man show at the front in the 2nd half.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:56 am 
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rumours are that Vettel has a special Renault engine (all within the rules) that consumes waaay less fuel than the other Renault engines, including his teammate's. Therefore he starts with much less fuel and can be faster during every stage of the race. When asked why Renault didn't give their super engine to everyone, they replied that it is better to concentrate on one driver who wins everything, than to risk the drivers taking points from each other and a Ferrari or Mercedes that wins. If this is true, it would explain why Vettel was beating Webber all the time. Not the only reason ofcourse.

I heard it from a French engine builder/tuner with bonds in Renault, but I don't know how reliable he is.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:58 am 
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alex1369 wrote:
The Silverstone punctures changed everything. Since they started changing tyres it only went up for RBR(Vettel), while for others down.
Just look at the 1st half of season, there were manny different winners and results, but the Silverstone failures made a one man show at the front in the 2nd half.

I believe that is what everyone has been saying for months, but thanks for pointing this out now :p

/sarcastic mode off


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:43 am 
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Omega wrote:
rumours are that Vettel has a special Renault engine (all within the rules) that consumes waaay less fuel than the other Renault engines, including his teammate's. Therefore he starts with much less fuel and can be faster during every stage of the race. When asked why Renault didn't give their super engine to everyone, they replied that it is better to concentrate on one driver who wins everything, than to risk the drivers taking points from each other and a Ferrari or Mercedes that wins. If this is true, it would explain why Vettel was beating Webber all the time. Not the only reason ofcourse.

I heard it from a French engine builder/tuner with bonds in Renault, but I don't know how reliable he is.

If Renault where able to produce such an engine, they would be marketing it more. In the era of eco-driving, every constructor would love to scream they have the most fuel efficient engine on the market.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:52 am 
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Imagine if the internet was around when Senna was driving:

'But he's only winning because he has the best car! *Insert random midfield driver* could do a better job!'

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:02 am 
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"It's a damn shame Satoru Nakajima never got a proper shot at winning the title."


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:17 am 
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StanV wrote:
I was going to make a post here, but realized that it just serves no purpose. Still thinking, after this year, that Vettel is a 'mediocre' F1-driver? Oh well.

That's not what I'm saying. I said that he has the best / fastest car (this and the last few seasons) and currently the best team behind him. Just because he won so much this year, does - IN MY OPINION - not automatically mean that he was the best in 2013. I'm not saying that he is a mediocre driver, but personally I was more impressed by a Kimi Raikkonen (who was even able to challenge the Red Bulls a few times before the tires were changed) or Nico Hulkenberg or Jules Bianchi.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:03 pm 
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EsbenT wrote:
"It's a damn shame Satoru Nakajima never got a proper shot at winning the title."


well, maybe not. But I still feel his son, Kazuki, would have had a great chance if they had allowed Stefan GP to enter.
It's plain to see that it would have been another Brawn-2009-like story. But Bernie didn't want it because the owner was, like his then just divorced wife, from Eastern Europe.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Justin Time wrote:
StanV wrote:
I was going to make a post here, but realized that it just serves no purpose. Still thinking, after this year, that Vettel is a 'mediocre' F1-driver? Oh well.

That's not what I'm saying. I said that he has the best / fastest car (this and the last few seasons) and currently the best team behind him. Just because he won so much this year, does - IN MY OPINION - not automatically mean that he was the best in 2013. I'm not saying that he is a mediocre driver, but personally I was more impressed by a Kimi Raikkonen (who was even able to challenge the Red Bulls a few times before the tires were changed) or Nico Hulkenberg or Jules Bianchi.


I agree that others impressed too, but Vettel won the title by 155 points. That's huge.

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