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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:03 pm 
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aerogi wrote:
Regarding Sauber, I've been wondering how they managed to continue in F1 after BMW withdrew if you see the lack of (big) sponsors on their cars.


I've mentioned it a few times in the past, Sauber has non-conventional sponsorship arrangements. Companies pay to be associated with Sauber but decline to be an advertised brand or have brand recognition with the car or sport.

EDIT - Here's an article from 2010 which talks about Saubers sponsor programme (which at the time, had just been launched).

Autosport.com wrote:
Analysing Sauber's new trailblazer

Peter Sauber has blazed the trail in many ways during his stint in Formula 1. Now he's ready to do it again with his Club One initiative. Dieter Rencken explains why it could be a winner

While F1 truly rocked to full stands and a fantastic race in Montreal, dark clouds are said to be amassing on the horizon as numerous sponsorship contracts come up for renewal this year, their three-season (or even five-year) cycles ending after Abu Dhabi.

Some significant title and secondary sponsorships are due to end soon, with the prevailing economic climate hardly instilling optimism in teams. Due to the long-term nature of most alliances, F1 teams are subjected to 'last-in; last-out' situations, whereby deals struck when the going is good generally end in down cycles – at which point the size of contracts forces companies to hold well back before committing. Thus most deals are signed when the economy is cresting before committing to partnerships. And, boom times generally precede busts...

That some alliances, such as, for example, the Williams/RBS partnership, are due to end, has been public knowledge for well over a year, while extensions to the contracts of others are currently being (re)negotiated up and down the paddock, the trigger being the imminent arrival of 30 June – traditionally the deadline for sorting such deals.

Thus a certain sponsor representative was present in Montreal, and spoke to this column on condition of anonymity. Would said company be renewing? It was the logical question, particularly as the brand enjoys extensive synergies with the sport, and enjoyed a highly visible presence for many years now?

The answer was surprising: "I never say 'never'; however, it is extremely unlikely."

For what reasons? Costs? Insufficient benefits? Team not performing?

"None of the above ... it's just that Formula 1's financial model is tired. Nothing has changed for thirty years. Yes, the TV numbers and global awareness have gone up in leaps and bounds; yes, fans are still as passionate as ever, but the core product is tired.

"When sponsorship came into F1," the source continued, "it was about sticking stickers on a car, getting paddock access and hosting guests. Forty years on, that's still the model, and it's outdated, particularly in the present environment. Look at the Paddock Club: not even the menus change, and to charge such vast sums to entertain key guests is no longer on. Any wonder Paddock Club is down 60% this year?"

Access to the Paddock Club - that high-end $4000/head extravaganza where the great washed get rewashed ahead of taking a stroll down the pitlane prior to nibbling canapes as entree to fine fare and bubbly – had been one of the key drivers for the company's alliance with the sport, and with the greater world's resistance to conspicuous excess, the sponsor was taking its money elsewhere. Quite where was not shared, except that a 'surprise' was promised.

"There's no real alternative product here, so that's us and F1. We'll just stick our money in other segments, likely cultural. I'm looking at all the options, and I am surprised at what opportunities are available out there," were the final words on the subject, said with a sweeping wave across the St Lawrence Seaway.

Then, while passing through Montreal's Pierre Elliot Trudeau Airport after the grand prix, a sponsor agent who has seen the inside of more paddock than any contemporary driver, echoed the sentiments. Sponsorship had changed, and F1 – which ironically introduced the concept of commercial sponsorship to the wider sporting and cultural world back in 1968 – had simply not kept pace, he said.

"It is all about B2B (business to business)," he continued. "The days of sticker sponsorship are well over, and F1 needs to adapt to that. What has made it more difficult is that the manufacturers have (mainly) left, so we don't have that platform available to us. But it's not all doom and gloom, there are deals out there, just we have to structure them rather than chase them..."

There was another problem, he said. In Monaco he had been requested by a long-standing target to refrain from making goodwill calls - not because said person was irritated by the attention - simply as his company did not even want to be perceived as considering F1 sponsorship at a time when staff layoffs were imminent.

The question of the Paddock Club arose. "Absolutely," he said when the sentiments of the first source were put to him. "I haven't taken my sponsors into the Paddock Club once this year. I take them into the paddock, we have lunch with the team, then watch the race from there. It's far more experiential, and costs nothing extra..."

Thus it seemed prescient that between the two discussions a media release headed 'Peter Sauber launches Sauber Club One' pinged into F1 media inboxes. At first glance it seemed the Swiss team had formed a fan club; the second thought that was this simply a brand-building exercise. One journalist with a sense of history wondered whether Club One was possibly a rehash of the T-Minus concept which so disgraced the now-defunct Arrows team in 1999.

But, no: where T-Minus was nothing other than a conniving attempt at building a non-existent brand through F1 – predictably it came to nought, while those who truly know Peter Sauber know the Swiss would never be associated with such questionable deals – Sauber's Club One is an earnest attempt at addressing the concerns of the marketplace and exploiting them commercially.

Following BMW's hasty – and some say 'shambolic' – withdrawal from F1, ownership of the team still officially known as BMW Sauber F1 Team (despite relying upon leased Ferrari power units) reverted to its founder. Although the terms of the deal remain confidential, it is thought Sauber (the man) did not benefit from the sort of altruism experienced by Brawn GP after Honda effectively donated the team and a full budget to its management. In fact, there are suggestions that he was forced to buy the team, which he did in order to save his home village of Hinwil, whose mainstay is PP Sauber AG.

Thus Sauber (the team) is believed to have a substantial long-term funding shortfall, leading the team's marketing department to commission Publicis, a leading worldwide marketing agency, to come up with a commercial B2B platform. Club One is the result.

"Formula 1 as a marketing platform has changed over recent years. Formerly, its global reach was primarily used to raise the profile of consumer goods. Today it also serves as a vehicle for business deals and Networking," said the team owner.

Where Club One differs from other commercial initiatives is that it is aimed at sponsors who do NOT wish to be seen on the flanks of an F1 car (or team uniforms, etc.), yet have a desire to be associated with a team – and therefore the sport – in other ways.

Their reasons for invisible links could be many – ranging from sensitivity in prevailing times through secrecy (think military contractors) to not being in positions to commercially benefit from exposure – yet such companies/brands may wish to exploit the many collateral benefits offered by F1, such as technical partnerships, ability to access the paddock and team personnel, and access to team facilities.

Companies with a regional focus may simply wish to enjoy team access during grands prix in their territories, while companies based in areas other than those hosting grands prix and have no reason to be seen on 600m television sets across the world, yet have a need or desire to be associated with F1 or a team, provide Club One with further targets.

Simply put, Club One is best equated to timeshare for sponsors: just as many folk desire holiday homes, yet cannot justify (or afford) full ownership, so many sponsors cannot justify (or afford) full programmes. Just as there is a need for fractional holidaying homing, so there is a need for fractional partnerships – and it is this market segment that Sauber aims to target.

The team's plain white car is a blessing in disguise, for there is no risk of conflict. In fact, two competing companies could well be members, for membership of Club One remains confidential unless the company wishes to make it known, while behind-the-scenes broking means introductions and B2B activities can be facilitated discreetly. All very Swiss...

The concept is simple: a basic package provides members with non-grand prix access to team and facilities, and thereafter the sky is the limit within the frame work of the sport. Use of Sauber team for TV commercials? Add $XXX. Peter Sauber or drivers at a corporate function? Can be arranged. Company's Christmas celebrations or sales conference in the Hinwil wind tunnel? Of course. With guided tour? Absolutely.

Next on the options list are activities during grands prix weekend – throughout the season, or on a regionalised basis. Again, menus prevail; again, activities are virtually limitless – including garage/paddock visits, dining with the team, and, if required, Paddock Club and other access. One-off stickers (ala Burger King in Spain)? Can be arranged.

Will Club One work? There are no guarantees in F1, but it certainly addresses many of – if not all - F1's current sponsorship issues, while at the same time providing sponsors with a form of rookie test session during which they can suck F1 and see whether it works for them without committing vast sums in the early stages. Thereafter Sauber is superbly placed to sign the company to a long-term deal.

The concept does not demand that logos appear on international television in order to justify sticker sponsorships – in fact, media exposure is irrelevant - while keeping the list of members under wraps minimises poaching of the type Mercedes did with Petronas.

Thus for team and sponsor there are very few inherent risks. Club One does not preclude Sauber from pursuing traditional deals, while each member adds to Sauber's coffers to a lesser or greater degree. In Montreal Sauber told this column the first member – a multinational with Swiss roots – had already signed on the dotted line, and that further signings were imminent. Who was the first member? Swiss smile...

Peter Sauber and his team blazed the trail in many ways during his Formula 1 career – even if victory in his own right evaded him – and one thinks here immediately of his bringing Mercedes into the sport, of giving Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa their first opportunities and being the first team to carry Red Bull livery, while being the very epitome of his surname – 'Clean' in the German tongue.

Club One's type logo – which resembles the international sign for cents (although dollars would, no, be preferable) – appears on the C29's airbox, raising international awareness of the concept.

Don't be surprised if this is another trailblazer from Sauber.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:40 pm 
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So it sounds like the FIA are trying to offer the teams something like what Mercedes had in testing, with another new tyre. And dev work with young drivers.
So will there be different sensors etc? Will pirelli take what they want on tyre tests or can the teams run their full collection and grab as much data as possible?
I do wish they would just keep it simple.
I also wish the FIA would grow a pair and start running the sport instead of bowing down to teams, it's frustrating.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:02 am 
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: thanks for the info. I wasn't aware of that regarding Sauber.

Regarding the tyres... I've posted this in the British race thread:
aerogi wrote:
So...
if the reasons are because:

1) left tyres were fitted on the right and vice versa against Pirelli's advice
2) too low tyre pressures used by the teams against Pirelli's advice

then there is totally not a problem and no need to switch back to the kevlar belt tyres if teams would be forced to use these tyres correctly then?

And then I wonder; those teams and drivers that are moaning about safety and want to switch to the previous tyre (i.e. Newey), then why did they not fit the tyres according to Pirelli's advice which would mean things would be a lot safer then?

I have no clue who is right, who is wrong, who or what to blame (Pirelli? the track? the teams? the FIA?)

If Pirelli is 100% convinced these are the reasons, then the sollution is pretty simple IMHO.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:24 am 
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As usual with these kind of things the blame is most likely balanced between all the different instances you mentioned


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:45 pm 
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Now at Spa in 2011 Red Bull took issue with Pirelli (and the tyres of that weekend) because they were concerned about the degradation and lifespan of the tyres IF they used the pressures they felt were needed. Pirelli advised Red Bull that the pressures were not recommended based on their own guidelines. Here we are two years later and the practice is still taking place, and is clearly still an issue yet the teams are blaming Pirelli. Am I missing something?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:22 pm 
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lol F1 teams

Man I hope we don't get rubbish hard Bridgestone like tyres back :(


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:47 pm 
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2013 tires with 2005 regulations. :flag:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:54 pm 
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Mika Kimi wrote:
2013 tires with 2005 regulations. :flag:


22 non-classified finishers :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:30 pm 
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Ian-S wrote:
You cannot blame Pirelli for wanting out, everyday Joe Public who saw Silverstone is just gonna say "I'm not buying Pirelli if all they do is explode", some people are just too short sighted/thick to understand.


and the tire companies, more than anybody, knows this. The bad publicity of it is a no-brainer. Most of the viewers are casual ones who really don't understand too much of technical things involved. They have just seen the Pirellis blowing up and for sure most thought what you just wrote.

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, let's be fair to Newey. Red Bull is not blowing it's tires, just some cars from competition (Massa, Hamilton and Perez 2 times this year, DiResta and Vergne once). And I totally agree with you that if this was indeed blame of the teams who abused of pressure setting to gain performance, then it's their problem and poor Pirelli for receiving all the negative publicity over this.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:17 pm 
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I want to say this, id rather have just like last year 20 spectacuilar races, than 20 races where they are driving like train wagons - they are stuck. Dull races.

I like how f1 is now a lot. And not with 1 set of tyres make 70 laps and no action... (Bridgestone)
But Silverstone was extreme. Why cant they have 2012 tyres again - there were no problems and we had great racing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Pirelli could put a seal on the pressure nozzle and set only one tire pressure for everybody, if that's possible

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:21 pm 
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I do think Pirelli hold some responsibility because I think its pretty clear that the changes they made to the tyres for this year contributed to a lot of the problems we have seen through 2013.
The low PSI, High camber, Tyre swapping & driving over kurbs may well have all helped cause the problems at Silverstone, However these are all things that teams have been doing for years without serious issue so the tyres surely should be designed with tolerances to withstand these things.


Its been clear all season that Pirelli were too aggressive with the 2013 tyres in the pursuit of 'spicing up the show' (Which I don't blame Pirelli for BTW since they were asked to do this).


Something I do however blame Pirelli for is not doing what was necessary to sort the tyres out sooner. If they had just admitted there were safety concerns with the tyres they could have made the changes already without needing the teams agreement.
They put company PR above the good of the sport in that instance & this prolonged the problems.


Something else I want to put out there is where this leaves the High-Deg tyre mandate.
When your constantly having to change tyre compound/construction to challenge the teams & 'artificially' spice up the show there was always the risk of eventually going too far.
The question now is do we continue down that path & risk repeating in the future, Or do we go back to better tyres that are not totally changed every year?



Going back to the 2013 tyres, I was reading earlier about why Pirelli made the changes they did.
Paul Hembrey in January:
Quote:
“To get more grip, more footprint, we had to change dramatically the carcass, going towards more of a radial construction. It’s not fully radial, but the plies that are inside the tyre are crossed and when you make them a radial you increase the size of the footprint.

“That might sound easy, but when you do that unfortunately you lose some of your lateral cornering force. So you have to recover some of that by increasing the rigidity of the belt pack – that’s the area you see at the top of the tyre. That’s the real weight gain, where we’ve had to put reinforcing materials in.

“That has a number of advantages, essentially. It stops what you call coupling in corners, that’s where the tyre deforms and tried to fold in the middle of the tyre. With that increased resistance you don’t get the buckling.

“Add on as well the changes to the compounds, the slick tyres, with that increased rigidity and much more rapid heat build-up what we’re hoping for is more thermal degradation.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:11 pm 
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RtN wrote:
Sauber are in penury and have already missed payments to suppliers as well as Hulkenberg's salary. Development on the car has stopped. The source is Blick.



Dutch Media reports this too.
Hulkenberg and Kaltenborn both confirmed there are issues. :ohmy:


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:07 pm 
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i think you guys are being naive about tire pressure tolerances and how many race teams abuse them

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Quote:
The low PSI, High camber, Tyre swapping & driving over kurbs may well have all helped cause the problems at Silverstone, However these are all things that teams have been doing for years without serious issue so the tyres surely should be designed with tolerances to withstand these things.


I see what you're saying, but that isn't really Pirellis fault still is it? They set parameters that the teams should operate in. The teams choose to go outside of these parameters. The old tyres coped, but they were still outside of what Pirelli recommended. The new tyres don't cope, but that doesn't matter because the teams are still well outside of what Pirelli recommend. Should the teams operate within the boundries of what Pirelli set, there is apparently no such issues. So is it Pirellis fault for providing tyres that can't cope outside of the recommended settings, or the teams fault for going outside the recommended settings in the first place?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:28 pm 
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I posted this analogy on another forum...

Of course it is Durex's fault if I buy one of their condoms, cut a hole it in, and my wife gets pregnant while I was using it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:30 pm 
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hahahaha you just couldn't resist could you?

Now shut up and fuck off to Pocono will you ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:32 pm 
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helmets for charity
http://www.ebay.com/sch/schuberth-helm/ ... ksid=p3686
))))

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:30 pm 
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micha wrote:
RtN wrote:
Sauber are in penury and have already missed payments to suppliers as well as Hulkenberg's salary. Development on the car has stopped. The source is Blick.



Dutch Media reports this too.
Hulkenberg and Kaltenborn both confirmed there are issues. :ohmy:

Belgian tv commentators said the Chelsea owner could buy the team. But they're not a very good source, so it's probably not true


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:57 pm 
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cookie wrote:
micha wrote:
RtN wrote:
Sauber are in penury and have already missed payments to suppliers as well as Hulkenberg's salary. Development on the car has stopped. The source is Blick.



Dutch Media reports this too.
Hulkenberg and Kaltenborn both confirmed there are issues. :ohmy:

Belgian tv commentators said the Chelsea owner could buy the team. But they're not a very good source, so it's probably not true



http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/07813

and now they say Hulkenberg terminated his contract. Yet he's likely to finish the season with them. Strange situation. Maybe he's hoping Webber does a Montoya and clears the path to replace him for the remainder of the season??


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