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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:18 am 
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some valid points Ellis, but perhaps The Red Bull team should have taken no risks and asked Vettel to give immediately the spot back. It was obvious this overtaking was going to be a problem, or at least would have been discussed by the stewards afterwards. Off course nobody knew IF it was going to be a penalty or not, but still, chances were high I think.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:18 am 
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waiting for the ´Kimi is propably drunk´ jokes....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:43 am 
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I bet there is Vodka in his bottle :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:58 am 
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he probably saw an icecream, lololol....

I see the photoshops have already started:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:30 am 
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Tobias wrote:
Kimi had a little accident on Sunday after the race

Image


Stoegi wrote:
I bet there is Vodka in his bottle :lol: :lol: :lol:


Tobias wrote:
he probably saw an icecream, lololol....

I see the photoshops have already started:

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]



Dont make me laugh!
ImageImageImage


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:54 am 
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Screenshot courtesy of Rubmifer with an addition added by me

Kimi plays DayZ

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:42 am 
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hahahaha


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:56 pm 
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:lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Autosport.com wrote:
Formula 1 drivers were warned specifically about increased scrutiny on anyone gaining an advantage by leaving the track, before Sebastian Vettel's controversial move on Jenson Button at the German Grand Prix.

Vettel grabbed second place from Button on the penultimate lap at Hockenheim after using the run-off area at the exit of the hairpin to drive past his McLaren rival.

That incident was investigated by the race stewards, who deemed that Vettel was in breach of the rules for not using the track "at all times" - and he was given a 20-second time penalty in lieu of a drive-through for his actions.

The decision, which dropped Vettel to fifth in the race results, caused some controversy because in other situations - like Lewis Hamilton overtaking Nico Rosberg off track in Bahrain, a move the officials ruled was ultimately completed on track under braking - drivers have escaped punishment. But it is understood that the stewards were reacting to the latest clarification of the rules that was issued at the British GP.

Prior to the race at Silverstone, F1 race director Charlie Whiting sent a note to all teams and race stewards making it clear that while the regulations state no driver can gain an advantage by leaving the track, race stewards would be encouraged to use their discretion in determining the extent of any benefit.

In the note, a copy of which has been seen by AUTOSPORT, Whiting stated: "Any driver leaving the track, (i.e. no part of his car remains in contact with the track in accordance with the current regulations), may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage.

"Whilst the relevant regulation stated that a driver may gain no advantage at all by leaving the track, we feel the stewards should be encouraged to use their discretion in cases where it is not entirely clear whether or not a driver has gained any direct or immediate advantage."

The clarification over drivers not gaining any advantage when they run off the track came in the same document where Whiting issued new guidelines about defensive driving – stating that drivers could use the full width of the track to hold back a rival providing that no part of their front wing was alongside the rear wheel of their car.


Ok, so we're starting to get some clarity around the reasoning for Vettel's penalty, other than the obvious that we know already. However it still begs more questions about the ontrack conduct of Alonso and Vettel (and probably others) throughout the race when cars were leaving the circuit on countless occasions. Vettel used the run off at T1 many times and Alonso kept on going putting all four wheels over the tracks edge between the final two turns.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:50 pm 
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I wonder why Alonso wasn't penalised then? Not only did he put all 4 wheels on track, he also managed to get a big advantage by doing that (easing the steering between the two last corners).

FIArrari is perhaps a bit far-fetched, but equal cases should be treated equally.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Tobias wrote:
:lol:

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Love this one :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:06 pm 
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ellis wrote:
coldtyre wrote:
I have a simple question regarding the rules. Sometimes a driver is asked over the team radio to give back position after shortcutting a chicane in-race, happened last year in Monaco for example ans we heard it on live TV.

Is it because the officials tell the team to do so in real time, or is it just the team's decision to prevent a drive through penalty?

And if the race was still ongoing with Button right behind Vettel, would the FIA still give Vettel a drive-through or just tell him to come back behind?


Race control contacts the team via an internal message system which every team has. It's connected to the pit wall and I suspect someone in the garage has it too. So then the team relays the message to the driver. It's likely the FIA would have asked Vettel to give the spot back had there been more time in the race. Which to me, makes the penalty incredibly unfair. It's always been accepted on that part of the track, Jenson broke a brand new rule, and had it happened earlier they'd have simply swapped the positions. Had they simply swapped Vettel back behind Jenson then I could understand it better because it's what they normally would have done, but deciding on a stop and go, which wouldn't have happened, seems overkill.

Thanks for clarifying. I think penalties should not depend on what time of the race it happens, or on the time it takes stewards to react to it, otherwise it leads to unfair situations indeed.

I hope we're not going to get any of this crap in the closing races if the championship is close!!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:18 pm 
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MaTT wrote:
The fact that there's no grass at that particular bit of circuit is a symptom of tarmac overkill, too. It's well beyond the point where having tarmac as a runoff could potentially be of any use, so why not just throw a strip of grass down with gravel outside it?

Very silly situation.


There is no gravel at that point of the track as there is a great big Santander advertisement at the side of the track. Look at alot of the tarmac nowdays. Big bloody advertisements painted on them. This is i feel is the real reason why we have tarmac at stupid places like the hairpin. I may be wrong but don't the circuits get most of their money from the track side advertising?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:33 pm 
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No Hungarian thread yet, so:

Quote:
FIA set to force Red Bull to change engine mapping
By Jonathan Noble Tuesday, July 24th 2012, 14:33 GMT

Red Bull Racing is set to be forced to make changes to the engine mapping of its cars for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the FIA poised to issue a clarification in the next 48 hours on the matter.

Following the controversy at Hockenheim on Sunday, when Red Bull Racing was referred to the stewards to explain why its cars were operating with engine maps that had reduced torque in the mid rpm range, motor racing's governing body is now close to acting.

AUTOSPORT understands that the FIA is planning to issue an official clarification on the matter before action gets underway in Budapest on Friday.

This document is almost certain to make it clear that what Red Bull Racing was doing in Germany will no longer be deemed acceptable.

Sources suggest that the FIA will lay down specific limits on the variations of torque that can be used throughout the rev range - with Red Bull Racing believed to have been using much less than the maximum available torque in the middle rev range.

It is understood that the new limit could allow as little tolerance in torque as two per cent, which is believed to be well inside the variation shown on the engine map used by Red Bull Racing at the German GP.

By having a greater variation in its engine mapping, Red Bull Racing was able to both minimise wheelspin and also pump more gases through its engines, therefore helping the aerodynamic benefits that the outfit still gets through the use of exhaust flow at the rear of the car.

Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.

Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner was keen to play down the matter at Hockenheim, suggesting that he never had any doubt his team was in compliance with the regulations.

"Unfortunately, when you have a quick car, it's inevitable that questions are asked," he said. "F1 is a competitive business.

"The rules are pretty black and white and having looked at the evidence, the data, they [the stewards] were fully satisfied. That's the nature of Formula 1 at the end of the day. Of course, you are always going to get other teams that are going to speculate."

Even if the FIA rule clarification does mean Red Bull Racing has to make changes to its engine maps, it should be a fairly simply matter for the team to revert to settings that it used without problem earlier in the campaign.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101476


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:23 am 
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kals wrote:
However it still begs more questions about the ontrack conduct of Alonso and Vettel (and probably others) throughout the race when cars were leaving the circuit on countless occasions. Vettel used the run off at T1 many times and Alonso kept on going putting all four wheels over the tracks edge between the final two turns.


Are you talking about situations where they gained a laptime advantage rather than a passing/defending advantage? It's probably too hard to police using the runoff and judge "gaining an advantage" without there being a car close by to judge with - with a faster lap time teams could argue they lost it in that turn but made it up elsewhere in the lap. They could use a 3 strikes rule to running off track like some touring car series do, but that's never been a huge deterrent and edges into over-policing territory. If they stay consistent with how it is now (applied to passing manoeuvres and quali laps, ignored elsewhere) I've got no problems with it.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:57 am 
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That is what I am talking about yes. I agree, it is difficult to police but it is not impossible. A couple of years back at Monza the stewards employed the three strikes policy and it worked well. I don't see why it should be difficult to impose that same policy at other tracks where drivers are able to leave the boundaries of the circuit without being disadvantaged.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:18 am 
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They could implement something like we have here and use sensors on the car which are triggered when they leave the circuit at a particular spot over a certain limit but generally those are more useful for cutting a corner rather than running wide, since that would be harder to police due to "I lost the car" type explanations.

Anyway I don't think the drivers are abusing that side of things anyway enough for them to need to spend too much time on it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:28 am 
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This is a problem that has arisen ever since they went to paved runoffs more and more. Like many have suggested, lay down a thin strip of grass right along the kerb in the turns and then beyond that, have your sea of asphalt for driver to slow down after spinning out due to dropping a wheel on said strip of grass. It would be self policing.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:50 pm 
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What about what the BTCC did for one of their races, where you got warned if you did it x amount of times, and then if you did it again, you got a penalty?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Already mentioned a few posts up...

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