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Well obviously, but from a purely racing standpoint it's the same thing. A dirty move isn't made legitimate just because it didn't cause a massive accident.

The two are very different considering the massive speed differentials.

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Maldonado's fault. He should have waited some corners. But Hamilton was so aggressive at Raikkonen and Maldonado. He should have known he could be hit when he was so aggressive and so slow.

Maldonado's fault IMO by taking the risk of keeping the battle staying outside the track.

Btw, not considering the relevance of the position in question, but I consideded Senna x Kobayashi incident much more controversial. Actually I regard that one as a mere racing incident.

I really hated how forcing other driver off the track after apex is called defencing these days. Both drivers showed the lack of respect for the fellow racer in that accident. Both should have deserved a warning as they have done this so many times before.

Hamilton could have come home 3rd, if he had let Kimi go one or two laps earlier, so Pastor wouldn't have been able to catch him. Defencing driving is not the fastest way to go around the track and it also wears out the tyres faster. But Lewis being Lewis, he's racing for every tenth and every inch he can, not thinking about the final result of the race. Of course this can be said about Maldonado also. They don't seem to be having this calculative racer character in them.



I couldn't agree more. Look at the "Old Skool" drivers of the grid. They took top 4 positions. In top 8 there's also Button and Rosberg who are calculative racers. Hülkenberg and di Resta are also quite good on this.

I don't think it's a co-incidence that these drivers came out to take the top positions, while Kobayashi, Senna, Maldonado, Hamilton and Massa were out. Grosjean could also be on this list, but in Valencia he finally showed some patience during the race. The later group is quite infamous for being a part in similar incidents that we witnessed at Valencia for multiple times, while the top finishers usually leaves just enough room for both drivers to get away from the scene.

In Montreal Alonso knew his tires were gone, but he didn't defend his position too aggressively, he brought the car home and took some good points that counts at the end of the season. Kimi and Webber are also on this same boat, rather than going for the ultimate best result of the one race, they take what is possible for them under given conditions.

I watched a Finnish rallycross race from TV on Saturday and it seemed to be more clean when drivers went side-by-side for several corners on the 2nd last lap for the win than yesterday's F1 race.

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

Thank you, finally someone getting out of the 100% or 50/50 routine. This is closer to reality IMO.

Hamilton did what he had to do, he left just enough room to Maldonado to take the corner with 2 wheels on the curb. Not plenty of room, but his job isn't to make his competitors life easy.

If a driver doesn't leave a choice to the other but going off-road (Rosberg in Bahrain) then it's clearly unacceptable.

Here, Hamilton left a car width between the inside of the curb and his car. He did not drive him off the road. All Maldonado had to do is to slow down and take the corner side-by-side with Hamilton. He failed because he went too quickly inside, jumped the curb and crashed into Hamilton so hard he couldn't even get his car away after the initial impact.

These two images show exactly how much room there was going into the corner. Use brain, slow down, turn left, keep away from the outside car.

Further analysis:

In every race series in the world, when you see this from your cockpit, you're beaten fair and square through the corner. You are behind and should yield and try another time. Everyone claiming Hamilton should give room to a driver on his ouside that is behind him while he's exiting the corner need a reality check.

He got greedy because there was tarmac run-off and his stubborness cost him the race.

I don't understand why we have all this tarmac runoff in chicanes if they're not to be used in this situation to avoid crashes like these.

Maldanado shouldn't have been so stubborn, realise that corner wasn't his, jink to the left to save his bacon.

Hindsight is great, but foresight should be a skill of a driver too, and as soon as he was off the track Pastor should've realised that move wasn't on and even if it was, it would've been taken back off him for having all 4 wheels off the track.
Think ahead, Pastor!

A reality check? You must be joking. The only reason Maldonado was in that position (screenshot) is because Hamilton forced him there. Hamilton indeed SHOULD have given him room because Maldonado had long since claimed that lane. Even on corner entry he was already there, so it's not as if he dove in late on his own and caused the mess. It doesn't matter what part of the corner you are in and which lane (inside or out) you are in, if there's a driver there you give him room. Anyone could just take the normal racing line with not regard for his opponents, but a decent human being should know better than to race that way.

Funny how the "evidence" pictures are used to defend Hamilton while they only show what the defender wants us to see (much like the news).

I think video is better evidence, it makes it more grey for both drivers.




at 0:05 mark, Maldonado is going for it, Hamilton leaving him the outside line going to apex. During the braking Maldonado is a bit ahead of Hamilton. Then they go to the apex and at 0:08 mark Hamilton runs the exit of the apex wide, making his entry for the next corner anything but ideal and forcing Maldonado of the track. At 0:10 mark Lewis seems to be leaving more room for Maldonado, who then thinks he can go for it and take the inside line to the left hander. But Hamilton decides not to close the door on the last moment, which is too late for Maldonado, who's going too fast and rides over the kerb right in to the McLaren's left sidepod.

For me it was Hamilton who wanted to play the game and he chose the most unpredictable driver to challenge. He could have blocked out almost anyone else from the top5 with that move. Pastor's biggest mistake was that he didn't back out and think few corners ahead.

So they both made a terrible misjudgement and paid for it.

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

Totally Hamilton's fault.

His tyres where gone. One might even argue he'd be getting the meatball flag soon as the tyres sooner or later would have caused serious trouble to him or others.

I wonder if the stewards where to afraid to punish him because poor little Lewis would play the race-card again......

Hamilton for basically waving the red flag at the bull and Maldonado for not backing off when it was evident they weren't going to make the turn like that.

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Chris, what you're describing is gentleman racers and it's perfectly appropriate way of driving. I also agree that nobody should disregard the others.

But my point is that in this particular situation (out of a slow hairpin), I have rarely seen it done in a professional race. It's commonly agreed between the drivers that it's the job of the passing driver to find a way around, and in this particular situation the lead car never leaves the outside line to the other one. All drivers do it and that's what you expect when you're racing behind someone.

Also, you said Hamilton took the normal line through the left-hander. He didn't. He was way outside the curb, aknowledging the presence of a car on his inside.

Again, I repeat that it's a 75/25 for me, but just because Hamilton should have known he is racing one of the most assholish drivers in the field and expect him to act like a retard, which he did because he failed to take that corner and understeered into Hamilton. Being on the curb is no excuse because he is responsible of choosing the best speed to safely make it around given the track room he has.

great discussion, great number of point of views, it seems everyone is right at some point in our explanations.

So 50/50 in the end, the result of 2 drivers being a bit too aggressive instead of thinking of valuable world championship points, racing incident/accident, no penalties should be given

End of story.

Watching it again, it looks like Lewis outbraked himself on worn tyres. Pastor should have been smart enough to brake earlier and then nail him on the exit of T13.

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011

If he waited for the next corner, Hamilton would still have slammed the door shut. Just like he did the corner before and would have done the corner after that one.....

Yea, because the stewards have been oh so afraid of punishing him since his poor Ali G reference.

Pick the Hamilton hater.

Great discussion. I have only seen the race with half an eye so I can't really add something substantial.

I do am trying to imagine what this forum would have been like in '89 and '90 with the Ayrton vs. Alain battles. Pages and pages and pages

FTFY