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I disagree with 2010 Scotty. Massa would have had to have taken the title to the final round there for Ferrari to stand any chance of winning the Constructors.

Fact time - Webber has 9 wins for Red Bull, Massa has 11 for Ferrari. Webber has 11 poles for Red Bull, Massa has 15 for Ferrari. Massa has helped Ferrari towards 2 constructors championships. Massa has come closer to winning the drivers championship than Webber has.

Massa has also proven himself to be a far more co-operative no. 2 driver, rather than Webber who still pisses and moans and refuses to help even when he's 100 points behind his team mate in the last race of the season.

Doesn't seem that unbelievable that people are saying Massa is the better no. 2 driver.

People will sit and say "Well Webber let Vettel through in the race". Yeah, he did. He also blocked Vettel off the line which let both Ferraris through, and decided 3 wide later in the race was a good idea. So he was pretty damn unhelpful. Massa actually done a fantastic job at help.

Also,



Massa lost the title on luck. Lewis admitted he was just passing every car he could, hoping he'd get it. Massa lost the title through no fault of his own, on the final corner, of the final lap, in the final race. That's closer than Webber has ever been.



Oh come on. Webber isn't that far ahead of Massa for crying out loud.

Was looking through the F1 archives and if Alonso had scored just 11 more points in his career he would have been a 5 times world champion instead of a two time world champion. Pointless fact I know because it is IF he scored, but just saying...

Alonso has now choked more times than Nigel Mansell.

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

2007 yes definitely Kals. His shenanigans in Budapest and binning it at Fuji cost him. And well, his implosion in general but I don't think you can say 2010 and 2012 he choked. That was the team.

He made his own mistakes in 2010 and 2012 also. But using term "choked" doesn't fit for this season, that is unless you count getting beaten by Massa in terms of qualifying and race speed in the last three races.

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

Alonso choked this year, he did the same in 2010 and 2007. Earlier in the season Alonso had a very handsome lead, something he was happy to vocalise and boast about...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102348/

_________________
BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

Alonso didn't choke in my opinion, Red Bull simply brought a significant update and Vettel made the most of it.

And Ferrari and Alonso got rattled by it. Someone mentioned before that the update Alonso had but Massa didn't took longer to set up.

That's a hilarious boast now, given the fact that both Vettel and Alonso retired only once after that.

_________________
"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

At that time Vettel had only won once, Alonso had most victories with three and nobody looked like stringing 4 in a row together ... still, hindsight is a wonderful thing and the Red Bull throughout the year had the potential to be great, it just took a while to maximise, as transpired shortly after that quote ...

Alonso only choked because Grosjean used him as a brake in Belgium, had he managed to finish in the points there and the rest of the season played out as it did, Fred would have been Champ.

I am not a fan of either, but you could also say Seb tried his hardest to throw it away too, and luck played a massive part, so I'm not really sure it's fair to point the finger at Alonso while chanting "Choker! Choker!" as most of what happened was outside his control...

Alonso took himself out of Suzuka though?

Alonso didn't choke in the Will Power kind of way, where he comes in and bins it under pressure. But the last third of the season, Massa had the edge on him. It wasn't a huge choke no doubt, but his lack of performance is was did it in the end.

Yeah I forgot about Suzuka, but my point still stands, had Grosjean not found him and everything played out as it did (Suzuka included) he'd had lucked into the win.

I don't believe in any of that. If the accident hadn't happened in Belgium (or Suzuka) then there was always a possibility of something else happening at another time. You cannot guarantee the exact series of events post Belgium, had Alonso finished in the points there.

And I agree with ellis on this. I used the term "choke" in a cruel but (failed) humourous manner. My joke clearly failed.

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

He hasn't spun a single time in the year. He hasnt had a car failure a single time in the year. He was starting 6th. You are going to tell me that it's not reasonable to think that he could have easely ended the race at least in 9th position?

You've misunderstood my point.

Let me put it another way. Assuming Alonso finishes in the points in Belgium, does not immediately guarantee him the title as you cannot be certain the remaining events and results would have been the same for him. Make sense?

_________________
BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

and you misunderstood mine. Nobody can deny things may have played out differently, that wasn't the point, if you read my post out loud, you'll understand what I meant.

If you forever want to play the if, but's and maybe's game against every possible scenario, then you're missing the point. This is the kind of discussion where nobody is right and nobody is wrong, probably pointless all in but fun all the same.