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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:51 am 
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You're talking about "Nascar roof flaps" on the sidepods (in your first post)?

It's been suggested many times in the past, by engineers to Joe Bloggs in the street who can see the obvious, but alas Indycar never seemed interested in the concept.

However, as unfortunate as the Vegas crash was, that system wouldn't have stopped any of the cars getting airborne in that mess as they were getting launched by each other rather than aerodynamic lift, they work on a principle of reversed aerodynamics to open the flap, which means they're only useful in situations such as Dario's at Michigan, Renna at Indy etc.

Great idea in principle, but only a pretty slim window of operation.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:58 am 
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Hi Ian,

you are of course correct that the main factors behind Vegas were that cars collided with each other and when that happens, there is no amount of 'flaps' that will stop that. What would possibly is the 'screens' idea in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:39 pm 
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The accident report will be published soon.

You can watch it live in here.
http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/indy500/multimedia/42440/?hide_sidebar=true

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Press Conference underway:

IndyCar has already said that Las Vegas was capable of having 37 cars on track. They still feel that is the case following investigations

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:13 pm 
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It wasn't the number of the cars it was the pack racing itself.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:19 pm 
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JR Hildebrand was travelling at 201mph when he hit Wade Cunningham at the start of the multi-car crash

Dan Wheldon was down to 165mph when he hit Charlie Kimball

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:21 pm 
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It has been confirmed that a fence post intruded the cockpit and hit Wheldon's helmet, causing the unsurvivable injuries

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:22 pm 
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Dan's car slowed from 224mph down to 165mph before the first contact with another car.

He flew about 325 feet and hit the pole which came inside the open cockpit area and caused the head trauma, the only injury that Dan had.

The accident was not caused because of the high banked 1,5 mile layout or the car only. It was a combination of the track shape and pack racing.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Return to Vegas might be possible after new car has been evaluated, but not for 2012 season.


They're thinking about aero-package for Vegas spec to make racing more challenging on tracks like this. There were limitless chances to have a racing line on the Las Vegas Motorspeedway for IndyCar in the race, this was something that has not occured before in IndyCar racing.

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Last edited by NVirkkula on Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Why not just move the posts/poles from the catch fencing back about 5-10ft? Have the fencing still be right at the top of the wall. Then use the poles to create the tension to hold the fencing where it is and connect the fencing to the top of the wall. That way you have the fencing still nice and tight and connected to the top of the wall yet still have the poles there creating tension and strength in the fencing. That way the fencing can still give and toss the car back onto the track yet not have the poles destroy race cars and injure drivers?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Having the fence posts on the outside of the mesh would not have made a difference to the injuries, says Barnhart

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:40 pm 
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NVirkkula wrote:
Return to Vegas might be possible after new car has been evaluated, but not for 2012 season.


They're thinking about aero-package for Vegas spec to make racing more challenging on tracks like this. There were limitless chances to have a racing line on the Las Vegas Motorspeedway for IndyCar in the race, this was something that has not occured before in IndyCar racing.


I like the first idea, maybe they finally will free the cars up some more and not make them race in packs..

Not quite sure what they mean about the "racing line" part though...


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:41 pm 
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Didn't see the conference, but I'm assuming that means the cars could run anywhere on the track, there wasn't just one or two possible lines.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Well, that was lame conference.

They didn't announce the G-forces that all the drivers went through in the accident.

Maybe the full report has more to offer.

Some of the media questions were good (like about poles being on the track side), some of them were useless.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:13 pm 
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I suppose if they went into everything in the report it would have gone on too long.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:31 pm 
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I hope this isn't the full report but an article about it in short.

http://www.indycar.com/news/show/55-izod-indycar-series/51041-accident-report-cites-and-39-perfect-stormand-39/

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:56 pm 
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It's an article.

Full report

http://file.brickyard.com/ftp/fetch/a2d ... 2b377a97b/


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Thanks Gaara.


It was -250G's that the 2nd impact was for Wheldon. When that comes straight to your body, it is unsurvivable no matter what. :(


"The earplug sensors appeared to come unplugged during the second head hit."


The damage of the car:
[spoiler]The inspection of the chassis of the #77 found an intrusion of the right front pull rod of the suspension impaled through the top of the tub down toward the floor and between the legs of the driver. This suspension was cut away by the track safety team performing the extrication of the driver of the #77. The suspension did not make contact with the driver, or penetrate his uniform. This requires further investigation as in the 9 years of this chassis being used in race competition, this is the first known instance of an intrusion of this type. The side intrusion panels performed as designed.

The point of contact with the pole supporting the catch fence created significant damage to the tub, beginning at the pedal bulkhead. There was a deep void, extended along the upper border on the right side of the tub toward the steering bulkhead, and continued into the cockpit area. This void also damaged the steering column and shaft, temporarily binding the lower extremities of the driver. The roll bar and the entire top of the tub at the fuel cell compartment were sheared off. All of the detachable structures were stripped away, including all 4 wheel and suspension components. The head surround horseshoe padding was broken into 3 large sections with signs of significant impact from the helmet. The driver’s restraints and seat belts were intact and functioning properly. While there was significant damage, the safety cell or tub generally performed as designed and gave the driver an opportunity to survive this accident.[/spoiler]

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:36 pm 
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Also interesting to read. Pippa Mann's part.

"The #30 had achieved a speed of 224 mph on the front straight and reduced throttle from 100% to approximately 20% approximately 2 seconds before making contact with the #8. The brakes were applied approximately 0.8 of a second before impact and the speed was reduced from 224 mph to 196 mph at the point of impact. "

So there it is for people who thought that she was only involved for not being qualified to race this type of cars in these speeds. Her reactions indicates that she did all she could in the situation she was given to avoid the accident. It's not like she went flat out through it, like some people speculated after the accident.


Will Power had -115G when the car landed back on the track after the flight.


About the track conditions:

Due in part to the geometry of the track, each track has its own unique routes around the circuit that optimize speed and handling capabilities. These routes are considered "racing grooves" and create restrictions on where a driver can place the race car on the track to remain competitive. Most tracks have limited numbers of racing grooves. For example, it is not unusual for ovals to have only one or 2 racing grooves, including the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Racing grooves not only restrict drivers' naturally aggressive racing behavior but make the location of other competitors' cars on the race track predictable. The geometry of the track also requires adjustments to the race car to achieve effective and safer competition. This is commonly referred to as the "race car set up" and is typically different at each race track. INDYCAR dictates the parameters for the race car set up at each event. Within those parameters, teams attempt to achieve set ups that give their drivers more or expanded racing groove options.

Examination of the video of the October 16th event demonstrates normal “pack racing” that is common of high-banked ovals. However, what was also witnessed was nearly unlimited movement on the track surface under race conditions. This capability of relative free movement on the track without the restraints of natural racing grooves must be attributed to track geometry beyond banking. Whatever the reason, the combination of track geometry factors allowed for relatively unrestricted movement within the racing pack not previously experienced. This movement not only allowed for increased probability for car to car contact but made it more difficult for drivers to predict the movement of other drivers. As a result, the opportunity for this incident was increased. While this incident could have occurred at any track at any time, the dynamic of the current car and the overall track geometry at Las Vegas Motor Speedway under race conditions appears to have been causal to this incident.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:42 pm 
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interesting read. the damage to dan's car and personal equipment is just unthinkable for racing these days. he really didnt stand a chance :(


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