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IMO, EV's will totally outclass ICE cars in terms of range, power, reliability & cost to run, and it'll be a no-brainer to own one, and I say this as a massive petrol head. The tech advancements in the sector are quite phenomenal

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The fallacy is blindly applying technological progress historical analogies with no regards to the physics behind them.

The same physics that squashed electric in favour of oil, a century ago. It's not lobbies, it's the sweet, quick, dense energy output per kilogram of liquid fuel contained at normal pressure in a plastic container. Something you will not get as easily out of any other energy source for the same weight, apart from uranium bars but it's impractical for use in transportation, or a pressurized hydrogen tank but it will be made out of thick steel and less practical for use. No amount of patience will solve that. We will transport shit, just never, ever as cheap and convenient as we've been doing with oil. It's not about you driving your car to grandma, it's mainly about the trucks that transport raw material to factories, then stuff out of those factories to our cities.

I'm not saying we should stick to the easy hydrocarbon fuel as a result. That would be a suicidal conclusion. We should stop it right fucking now (make that 40 years ago).

No, I'm saying that the average joe will need to accept a reduction in convenience and increase in cost of all forms of transportation. Not as a temporary transition to a mature technology, no, as a permanent reality. Perpetuating the lie like the automotive does (or that hyped-up liar Musk does with his electric trucks about to hit the market in 2017), actually gives a big service to Big Oil, because it makes people wait and expect a miracle that will not come, and generally assume that it's just a matter of lobbying and willpower. It will make it that much more difficult to accept the energy transition, and as a result we may stay that much longer addicted to the drug when the promess doesn't deliver and people see the actual hit on their budgets and lifestyle.

It's due to this limitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

When people say "never" in this case, they base it on the theoretical physical/chemical properties of matter used as fuel or in batteries. What engineering progress does in any field, is to get us closer to exploiting this theoretical limit, but it cannot change it as it's an intrinsic property of matter.

Nice minute physics summary on the topic of batteries:



This is a great topic and the largest challenge ahead of us in this century. Just, the solution will not be 100% technological.

2 days of 40 degree heat, big wow.

In 1976 we had a period where there was no rain from April until September, during July the temperature did not drop below 30, and for something like 15 days it never dropped below 36.
In 2003 it was much the same.

Hot weather in the summer is not a new phenomenon.

As an Aussie that grew up in country Victoria.....1976 Britain sounds like my kind of summer!

But, as I now live in Japan, I can attest that a 36 degree day here in Tokyo feels different to a 36 degree day back in Oz. It is the humidity. In Oz it is dry (unless you live up North). In Japan it is humid and it feels much hotter. I imagine Britain is the same as Japan.

But I am a summer child, so I love both.

don't forget they can make batteries lose performance at, let's say, every 10.000km and once you reach 100.000km it'll be impossible to drive to groceries without any sort of issue. Never believe in manufacturers if they're claiming that manufacturing EVs are their way to save the world. Actually is claiming and making everyone believe they're saving world whist they're making a shitload of money

that until, of couse, some sort of scandal like dieselgate breaks out and forces the whole industry change, or make everyone believe they're changing

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Humidity hasn't been too bad this time, but you can feel it building up today.
For me 25 degrees high humidity is worse than 40 degree low humidity.

Regrading battery performance, just leaving a battery on full charge without using it within a day will start to cause it performance loss, in the drone world it's well established that for every day a battery is left on full charge without use, it looses 1% of it's performance, it's why many smart batteries start to discharge almost immediately to storage voltage and as Coldtyre posted, the energy density has already hit it's maximum, it will need a new battery technology to fix that issue and solid state batteries is not it.

The 1976 comparison isn't a great one:

- The heatwave was localised over the British Isles
- It was a standout year and is statistically worthless

This year's heatwave covers nearly all of western Europe, temperatures nudging 40 in quite a few places, and - this is the most important part - it is no longer an unusual event.

The last record high temperature before 1976 was set in 1911. The record wasn't broken again until 1990. Major heatwaves in the UK were rare in the 20th century and we know this because people still go back to the 70s for the example. Since 2000, we've had them almost every year, and all of the warmest years on record in the UK have been in the last 20 years.

Compared to the average temperatures in central England from 1960 - 1990, the change (and the accelerating page of it) can't really be clearer - since the 1990s the temperature hasn't stopped climbing.

Don't Look Up, you might not see that comet

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But can I have the acid rain and ice age I was promised in the 1970’s first please? I’m still waiting for those.

The problem for you is many of us are now old enough to remember the doom mongers from the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, 2000’s etc. etc. and we are still waiting for the disasters that were promised during those periods if we did nothing, well guess what we did nothing and nothing happened and don’t give me crap about “but but it’s a delayed compounded reaction”, I’ve heard it too many times before.

1976 was not “jut localised over the UK” it was most of Northern Europe too, the temps didn’t suddenly drop 30 miles across the channel, oh and it lasted 3 months, but if thats the justification you’re going to use to avoid having to accept the comparison - from people who lived through it - well, then erm OK… Keep parroting what the BBC tell you then.

Perhaps if the people advocating for climate change actually practiced what they preach and stopped taking private jets to climate summits or private helicopters to cake shows then the rest of us might make the effort, until then, nobody “just about managing” is going to take the climate seriously, they’ve got bigger problems to worry about than what the earth will be like 100 years after they’ve died, like erm, being able to afford to feed themselves, for a start.

I think you need to feel a forest fire happening across your street to get a sense that things aren't normal and won't be getting normal. I've been there, having 30 minutes to decide what to pack, because the fire came so fast, and be content that everything else will be lost is a fucking horrible feeling.

Been there done that, yes it’s scary, lucky you had the 30 minutes, I didn’t.

Oh guess what, I survived working in 40F heat today without air conditioning, fans or hysterics, nice of you to ignore my last point though…

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your last point.

The heatwave was here first and I also worked at 42º without AC or a fan and consider myself lucky to not be in the towns where it was 46º. In fact, today's been the coolest day of the month at 26º and the forecast is for it to not go lower than 29º in the next week.

We keep pushing the climate targets back because people don't care. Heck, I saw a clip today of the UK news where the presenters were saying "Gosh, you meterologists are so negative, we're just trying to enjoy the good weather" while the guest was trying to make a point about how screwy things are.

The problem with a lot of people my age is we’ve heard this so many times before that eventually you’re just like “yeah whatever”, add onto that the people flying to climate conferences in their private jets and morons like Prince Charles flying by private helicopter everywhere while also saying we must do more to protect the environment along with his out of touch son patronising everybody left and right and it’s no surprise nobody cares. The UK could literally go back to the dark ages and we all live in caves and it would make no overall impact on worldwide emissions.

Cars too, scrapping ICE is a pipe dream that won’t solve emission problems because personal individual travel makes up such a small percentage of overall emissions (7% iirc) that again, everybody could switch to EVs tomorrow and nothing would happen, the majority of global emissions are from industry and power generation, sort that first before demanding I scrap a perfectly good Nissan Micra in favour of an expensive EV, I’d love an EV, my friend has one and his operating and travdl expenses are under a fiver a week, but no way can I afford to buy one.

Come back to me when India and China are held to the same standards you want me to adhere to, then I’ll help but until then yes the world is fucked up, but stop expecting me to fix it, I can’t.

It’s not that we are pushing climate targets back because we don’t care, they’re being pushed back because they are unachievable with the present level of technology if you want to continue to live life to the standards that you are used to. If you want to walk everywhere, have only enough energy to light your house for 3 hours a day and enough to heat it for 2 and the rest to cook with, have no mobile phone or other forms of technology like fans, air conditioning, tv, radio etc. then sure, that’s achievable. If you want to continue living life as you know it now, nope, not gonna happen.

There is a solution to our energy and partly emissions problem, it’s the safest form per kwh or energy production there is, and the cleanest, but they won’t use Nuclear because there mere mention of it will send these environmentalists into therapy.

At least in Finland, the Green Party officially endorses Nuclear Energy nowadays. Took them 30 years to come to their senses, but better late that never. The more nuclear energy, the better. That's my opinion.
https://allianceforscience.cornell.edu/ ... y-nuclear/

I had to double check this was indeed the F1 General Discussion thread.

Nuclear is the answer for 75% of the emissions problems at the moment. We could leave everything else alone and just start building nuke plants and be ahead of the targets for emission reductions in 10 years.

That move will buy us precious time to find the actual solution to the individual and commercial transit issue because let's be real, electric ain't it. It's AN option, but it's hardly the green magic bullet (that's all been discussed above.)

Let me know when China and India start playing ball with the Climate, then we can talk.

I have news for everyone too... You better not lead with, "Look, you must buy an EV for the good of the planet. It'll take much longer to get where you're going, products will all cost more and nothing will be as easy as what you have now." No one is going to go for that. Many people already realize those points and have determined that electric is rubbish, no different from beta max or laser disc. Whether they're right or not almost doesn't matter. They've already made they're judgement and it will be very, very hard to pry them off it.

not sure why the whole co2 debate is centered around potential climate calamities when pollution very obviously kills people and increases cancer, asthma, and respiratory diseases RIGHT NOW.

and regarding climate, a warmer planet is potentially a greener one if managed correctly - unfortunately we suck at managing the planet

I'm so tired of the "I won't take climate science seriously until the few celebrities that quote it stop taking private jets, and people stop talking about electricity because it's currently largely generated through fossil fuels, and people stop asking me to do things that are currently more difficult or expensive than the old way of doing them. Sort all this out and I'm on board with your global warming mumbo jumbo".

Just be honest and say you don't give a fuck what happens to the planet in a few decades when you're not on it anymore, and you'd rather enjoy your creature comforts and petrol-buying experience and large farty race car sounds until then. The logical consequences of our current way of life is the biggest motivator there will ever be to take this seriously, if that's not enough for you then there's no point in pretending something else will get you there.

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Ah the typical guilt trip argument “just be honest and admit you don’t give a fuck reeeeeeeeeeee”. If I had a quid for everytime I’ve heard that I wouldn’t need to work again, here’s an idea, instead of insulting everybody who has for the past 50 years heard the same thing over and over, come up with a new solution. It is not also fossil fuel that creates the pollution, quiet a bit of your beloved green products cause just as much, or more in their production than a traditional non-green product. Perhaps you missed it but I drive a 20 year old 1 litre petrol Nissan Micra, that I’ve owned since new, how will scrapping a perfectly good car and buying a new overpriced EV help? Or are you just projecting your guilt onto others for falling for the bullshit about diesels back in the day?

Or if you’re so convinced you sacrificing everything you have will make a difference in this delusional pursuit of net zero, go for it, in a years time well come visit you in your cave and if you’re still alive will do a comparison on how much difference you have made.

I’m so fed up of being guilt tripped and blamed for a problem which I have no control over or can make a difference to change, maybe if you stopped insulting the people you need help from in order to achieve your goal, you might not find them so unwilling to help, lobby your MP instead, they’re the ones that can make a difference by changing the law, lobby them to stop carbon credits which allow companies to pollute as much as needed and can buy their way out of their guilt, lobby your officials to reinstate brush clearing that might help stem the bush fires, lobby them to reinstate river dredging that might help with flooding etc. etc. cos shouting st me isn’t going to make the slightest bit of difference.

I’ll assume that will be your last post on the forum too since this forum contributes to environmental pollution and by visiting it you are creating pollution too, if you love this net zero policy so much practice what you preach, or does that policy not apply to you like it does all the other people campaigning for change too?

As others have said, let me know when China and India are held to the same standards, then we can talk.

Maybe @

Gaara can split off all these environment posts into a separate thread, that’ll be fun.

Too long didn´t read
I´m so happy for you, or I´m sorry for your loss.

Anyway, that Hamilton dude ey? Boy, I hate him soo much! And what´s that about Spa being dropped for 2023? Apart from Domenicali, everybody would hate that!