2020 Formula One Random Discussion Thread

Jonny · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:40 pm

About Lewis Hamilton. It seems wrong to me that the BBC are calling him 'black', when he has a white mother. I also think he should learn something -

Karan · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:49 pm

Jonny wrote:

About Lewis Hamilton. It seems wrong to me that the BBC are calling him 'black', when he has a white mother. I also think he should learn something -

They've been doing that for years, and he does it often himself too when it's advantageous to do so...

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:17 pm

Karan wrote:

Jonny wrote:

About Lewis Hamilton. It seems wrong to me that the BBC are calling him 'black', when he has a white mother. I also think he should learn something -

They've been doing that for years, and he does it often himself too when it's advantageous to do so...

Jesus Christ.

Mixed Race people still call themselves black, it's just a basic catch all term they use to describe themselves shorthand.

To suggest that Lewis doesn't have a dog in the fight because he has a white mother is fucking awful in the extreme, as is the notion that he only plays up his blackness when it suits him

Sit down you two and leave this one to those who actually know what they're talking about

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:21 pm

James B wrote:

- Comparing to Webber, I think 2010 is key. Webber was the better driver for 2/3rds of the season, because the car suited his driving style more with the way the exhaust-blown diffuser was set up. However, I remember reading a year or two later that around halfway through the season, they changed the setup of the EBD and Vettel was suddenly faster. The implication - especially when you have the context of Horner and Marko blaming Webber for Istanbul when it clearly wasn't his fault, and Mark having the new front wing taken off him for qualifying at Silverstone - is that that was done deliberately to help Vettel. To me, that says everything about how that team was operating. What I found out recently was that Webber had to actually write to Dietrich Mateschitz after Istanbul to explain what was happening in the team because he had no idea and he was very apologetic when he found out. It partly explains why Mark stayed for 2013 even though he had the offer to go to Ferrari with Alonso (along with Mateschitz's loyalty after his cycling accident)

If your source on the 2010 story with the Letter was the F1 podcasts with both Mark and Flavio, I too heard them and it made me wonder if Red Bull didn't have a problem with Mark, but the problem was actually fucking Flavio

Sounds like he was in Mark's ear the whole time saying "they won't allow you to win any longer, they'll switch to Vettel" and generally being a pain in the arse to the Red Bull management too, so he made it inevitable they would focus on the guy they managed so they wouldn't have to pay that clown any championship winning fees.

Question is, why did they hire another Manager's driver in the first place instead of two of their own...

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:21 pm

well Lewis at least is trying to do a bit to improve, better than those drivers that look like dummies and do whatever their PR people tell them

plus all the big companies in the world have their share of embedded disgrace into them

EAS · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:10 pm

I was watching 'The Last Dance' these days, and seeing all the talk about Michael Jordan made me think about how it goes in F1. My main takeaways about Jordan in the series were:

1) He always found a little skirmish that could spark him with extra motivation. It came down to a point when he had nothing else to prove, so smaller things like a guy talking trash to him or a coach from the other team that saw him in the restaurant and didn't talk to him were things that he used to motivate him when he was already at the top.

2) He was able to be present in such a way that very few are able to. It's quite a zen talk, but it makes all sense. Like a journalist says in the doc, his ability to be present is uncomparable. He got away at a point where other promising players started to be afraid of not being able to deliver.

All this made me think of F1 drivers. I think the difference of talent among one time champions (like Rosberg, Button, Raikkonen) to multi-champions like Hamilton is tiny if not unclear. But what set these drivers apart is that some have a desire to win at all costs every time while others are happy winning once or twice. And you have guys like Alonso in between that try way too hard and can't win more because of that, or like Vettel that couldn't keep the shit together for much longer.

iks · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:47 pm

James B wrote:

Re: Vettel, I'd say this much:

- Comparing to Webber, I think 2010 is key. Webber was the better driver for 2/3rds of the season, because the car suited his driving style more with the way the exhaust-blown diffuser was set up. However, I remember reading a year or two later that around halfway through the season, they changed the setup of the EBD and Vettel was suddenly faster. The implication - especially when you have the context of Horner and Marko blaming Webber for Istanbul when it clearly wasn't his fault, and Mark having the new front wing taken off him for qualifying at Silverstone - is that that was done deliberately to help Vettel. To me, that says everything about how that team was operating. What I found out recently was that Webber had to actually write to Dietrich Mateschitz after Istanbul to explain what was happening in the team because he had no idea and he was very apologetic when he found out. It partly explains why Mark stayed for 2013 even though he had the offer to go to Ferrari with Alonso (along with Mateschitz's loyalty after his cycling accident)

- Even with all that shit happening, and hurting himself in another cycling accident, Webber still nearly beat him and they were always ridiculously close in qualifying that year. Mark was very quick over one lap so that tallies with Vettel being similar. But after 2010, in my mind, it does look like the politics of the team start to sway more and more towards Vettel and Mark loses motivation to fight back. The only glimmer he had was in the first half of 2012. The thing that always struck me was that Vettel was stronger on the Tilke circuits while Mark tended to be better on the traditional circuits. The Red Bulls tended to be designed more around the Tilke circuits and those with high speed corners which is why they always came on strong at the end of seasons, particularly after the likes of Korea and India got added to the calendar - that's why I lost a bit of interest in 2012, because it always felt inevitable that Vettel would come through in the end with the tracks suiting his car

I never knew Webber had a chance at Ferrari. That would've been awesome to see him there even if he never would have won.

To me, it's hard to see why Horner/Marko preferred Vettel over Webber to such a...disharmonious extent like that. Is it just a case of preferring one personality over another? They probably didn't like Webber's straightforward attitude and Vettel was a young "rising star". Then they ditched him... :lol:

Damn, Webber was a great driver. He never made dumb mistakes like Vettel did.

iks · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:58 pm

codename_47 wrote:

Karan wrote:

Jonny wrote:

About Lewis Hamilton. It seems wrong to me that the BBC are calling him 'black', when he has a white mother. I also think he should learn something -

They've been doing that for years, and he does it often himself too when it's advantageous to do so...

Jesus Christ.

Mixed Race people still call themselves black, it's just a basic catch all term they use to describe themselves shorthand.

To suggest that Lewis doesn't have a dog in the fight because he has a white mother is fucking awful in the extreme, as is the notion that he only plays up his blackness when it suits him

Sit down you two and leave this one to those who actually know what they're talking about

I'm ~12% Asian but I don't go around saying I'm Asian.

Let me be very clear here, Lewis, despite his mocha skin color, came from a very privileged background. How else could he have gotten into F1 and been basically groomed into it (by Ron Dennis et. al) since a young age? He is essentially just another white European driver. I don't see why people make such a fuss over race/skin color. We're all human anyway.

If I were black, I would not like people telling me that my people and I are oppressed when that is not true. Repeating these false statements just perpetuates the issues at hand and does not help. There are many successful blacks and Africans; and I have known some. The notion they are oppressed is laughable.

Overall, the issue is class, not "race".

Anyway, looking forward to the race in Austria. :lol:

James B · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:01 pm

codename_47 wrote:

James B wrote:

- Comparing to Webber, I think 2010 is key. Webber was the better driver for 2/3rds of the season, because the car suited his driving style more with the way the exhaust-blown diffuser was set up. However, I remember reading a year or two later that around halfway through the season, they changed the setup of the EBD and Vettel was suddenly faster. The implication - especially when you have the context of Horner and Marko blaming Webber for Istanbul when it clearly wasn't his fault, and Mark having the new front wing taken off him for qualifying at Silverstone - is that that was done deliberately to help Vettel. To me, that says everything about how that team was operating. What I found out recently was that Webber had to actually write to Dietrich Mateschitz after Istanbul to explain what was happening in the team because he had no idea and he was very apologetic when he found out. It partly explains why Mark stayed for 2013 even though he had the offer to go to Ferrari with Alonso (along with Mateschitz's loyalty after his cycling accident)

If your source on the 2010 story with the Letter was the F1 podcasts with both Mark and Flavio, I too heard them and it made me wonder if Red Bull didn't have a problem with Mark, but the problem was actually fucking Flavio

Sounds like he was in Mark's ear the whole time saying "they won't allow you to win any longer, they'll switch to Vettel" and generally being a pain in the arse to the Red Bull management too, so he made it inevitable they would focus on the guy they managed so they wouldn't have to pay that clown any championship winning fees.

Question is, why did they hire another Manager's driver in the first place instead of two of their own...

Yeah, I think Mark mentioned it in the podcasts and also details it in his book. Was also mentioned in the recent Autosport article on Turkey 2010

Obviously when they hired Mark he was the best driver available. I'm not sure Flavio can be blamed for Red Bull choosing to back Vettel. I think that was coming regardless. Marko was where the power lay in the team at the time

iks wrote:

I never knew Webber had a chance at Ferrari. That would've been awesome to see him there even if he never would have won.

To me, it's hard to see why Horner/Marko preferred Vettel over Webber to such a...disharmonious extent like that. Is it just a case of preferring one personality over another? They probably didn't like Webber's straightforward attitude and Vettel was a young "rising star". Then they ditched him... :lol:

Damn, Webber was a great driver. He never made dumb mistakes like Vettel did.

I do think Webber will remain underrated. He did make mistakes, though. Korea was the big one. If he'd kept it on the circuit and brought the car home for points that day, he probably would've won the title - Vettel would've effectively been out of contention going into Brazil so the team would have had to have ordered him to move over and give Webber the win there, and he'd have had the team's full support in Abu Dhabi

But otherwise, he destroyed Yoong, Pizzonia and Wilson's careers, blew away Klien, blew away a young Rosberg, blew away an ageing Coulthard and was on par with Vettel until team politics interfered. Flavio said at the time that he believed he was faster than Alonso. I'm not saying he was elite level but he wasn't just another lackey - he pushed Vettel hard and drove him on to the heights he reached

XQR · PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:03 pm

codename_47 wrote:

Mixed Race people still call themselves black, it's just a basic catch all term they use to describe themselves shorthand.

What?

iks · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:08 am

Lewis, for all intents and purposes, is just another white F1 driver.

He did not come from Africa or the ghetto and he is not a hero for being black.

Your notion that that statement is racist is laughable.

And no, I am not belittling his achievements. He has no doubt worked very hard to get to where he is and he should rightfully be lauded for that. But he should NOT be pampered and applauded just for being (50%) black.

I don't see anyone talking about Willy T. Ribbs. If you want a black driver to rally behind, he is your man. He actually had a lot of adversity during his career, much more so than Lewis.

Please think rationally. Thanks.

Dan Belcher · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:30 am

iks wrote:

Lewis, for all intents and purposes, is just another white F1 driver.

What the fuck???

Dan Belcher · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:40 am

Scotty wrote:

He's not pampered and applauded either. I'm sure his comments section or his DM's wouldn't be completely people applauding him.

Especially considering the public displays of racism such as this. People are way more bold in private than in public!

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:03 am

iks wrote:

Lewis, for all intents and purposes, is just another white F1 driver.

tell him to go to a fancy neighborhood dressed in a way people wouldn't know if he's really Lewis Hamilton, with cheap clothing in a place like Av. Oscar Freire in São Paulo. The people who live there will cross the street or call the police because "there someone who doesn't belong there"

some people said he is privileged but until McLaren and Mercedes put him under their umbrella he went through tough times, he had to sleep in a couch in a small pad, perhaps the most humble of all world champions

Karan · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:10 am

codename_47 wrote:

Karan wrote:

Jonny wrote:

About Lewis Hamilton. It seems wrong to me that the BBC are calling him 'black', when he has a white mother. I also think he should learn something -

They've been doing that for years, and he does it often himself too when it's advantageous to do so...

Jesus Christ.

Mixed Race people still call themselves black, it's just a basic catch all term they use to describe themselves shorthand.

To suggest that Lewis doesn't have a dog in the fight because he has a white mother is fucking awful in the extreme, as is the notion that he only plays up his blackness when it suits him

Sit down you two and leave this one to those who actually know what they're talking about

Yea I'll let you carry on with gobbling right up the warm and fuzzy stories created for the media and wider audience in general. But this isn't about casual racism (at least not from my side) but the fact that he's used the "I'm black" card several times over the years in both video and print interviews to garner sympathy or come across as the lone wolf or underdog or to satisfy whatever insecurity complex he has. But I think that point is probably well above your head due to the rose tinted Lewis glasses, so I'll just leave it at that.

Karan · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:34 am

James B wrote:

Re: Vettel, I'd say this much:

- Obviously I'm a Webber fan, so disclaimer there

- Comparing to Webber, I think 2010 is key. Webber was the better driver for 2/3rds of the season, because the car suited his driving style more with the way the exhaust-blown diffuser was set up. However, I remember reading a year or two later that around halfway through the season, they changed the setup of the EBD and Vettel was suddenly faster. The implication - especially when you have the context of Horner and Marko blaming Webber for Istanbul when it clearly wasn't his fault, and Mark having the new front wing taken off him for qualifying at Silverstone - is that that was done deliberately to help Vettel. To me, that says everything about how that team was operating. What I found out recently was that Webber had to actually write to Dietrich Mateschitz after Istanbul to explain what was happening in the team because he had no idea and he was very apologetic when he found out. It partly explains why Mark stayed for 2013 even though he had the offer to go to Ferrari with Alonso (along with Mateschitz's loyalty after his cycling accident)

- Tl;dr - I think Vettel was good but was only ever as good as his car, and benefited massively from Adrian Newey and internal politics at Red Bull

This post started out looking promising but lost all credibility in my eyes with the above point. Webber the better driver for 2/3rds of 2010? A Webber fan eh...you don't say. By my rough calculation, Vettel out-raced Webber 10-6 in 2010, excluding races where unreliability or misfortune affected the driver result. I'm not saying Webber was a slouch or a typical number 2 driver, as he was a very capable racer on his day. But your argument that he was the better driver for the majority of 2010 does not hold any water in my eyes. While it's true that the team started to favor Vettel, and this coupled with his dominance thereafter, basically destroyed Webber mentally and he was never at Vettel's level.

I'm going to be in the minority with this as it's the cool kid thing to jump on the "Vettel's a joke" bandwagon, but I tend to agree with Dave Ellis' point that Neil shared in that while he hasn't been driving like a former champion since mid-2018, he was unquestionably phenomenal in his RBR days. I'm somewhat reminded of the curious tale of Hamilton in 2011, while Vettel was dominating at the top. Yeah, he did well to claim 3 wins that year, but when he wasn't winning, he was a complete mess and spent much of the season colliding with Felipe Baby (5 times was it?). Not to mention his self admitted collision with Kobayashi in Belgium. Apparently, even a bunch of former drivers agree that with the exception of Silverstone (which they deemed a racing incident), the blame for every other collision was attributed to Hamilton. Don't seem to recall his temperament or ability questioned though.

Vassago · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:57 am

Omega wrote:

I wouldn't mind Mugello though.

Mugello would be horrible for F1. It's nothing but chicanes and long-sweeping bends. It's Imola and Catalunya on steroids. If you can't pass into San Donato then you're not gonna find a single overtaking elsewhere.

I'd rather see F1 at Enna-Pergusa :lol:

Gabriel · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:31 am

After reading the last couple of pages...fuck, I can't wait for F1 to race again..

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:07 am

I agree with Gabriel, though. We need all races we could get.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:43 am

when the season returns all our hatred will be directed to Mercedes winning every single racing and Toto Wolff, that we thankfully will not be able to see his scumbag smile because he will be wearing a mask

TBK-Light.com

2020 Formula One Random Discussion Thread

Who is online