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I get the feeling from what you're saying that his winning comes without effort from him. He just needs to step into the car, floor it, drive on 80% of his capabilities and it'll be fine...

He didn't make a single mistake, never fucked up anything during crucial parts of qualifying/race. Did you see how insanely aggressive he was last Sunday during that first lap running behind Rosberg? He wants that first position, and he wants the margin to be as big as possible when he's in that position. The fact that RBR had to 'calm him down' on the tyres several times says enough. That's impressive to me.

I agree that he certainly wasn't the only 'impressive' driver out there this year, but clearly by far the best of them.

Regardless of whether or not you agree, it's worth asking the question. Vettel hasn't quite had the chance yet to build up that bank of truly outstanding performances that, say, Schumacher or Senna has - that's not to say he won't over time as he's got plenty of time to do it, but it isn't quite there yet, and I think that's what people are getting at when they raise questions about Vettel's ultimate ability. But we won't know how someone fits into F1 history until it is F1 history. I don't think we'll know how Vettel fits in for another 5-10 years - he's still developing as a driver and barring an astounding development it's likely he has more than half his career to go

There is also the Newey aspect, which is still a fairly big caveat - no one ever won more than 1 title in a Newey Williams, but that's mainly because all the drivers that won one weren't given a full opportunity to try again with one. Had someone good driven for Williams from 1991 through to 1997, they conceivably could have won 4-5 championships in those 7 seasons - only unreliability and Schumacher would have stopped them making it more, unless of course it was Schumacher, in which case he may have won 6 in a row

What would internet forums have made of Hill qualifying on the front row of every race in 1996? It's one of the greatest achievements of modern F1 history and it's largely forgotten today. This by Saward written just after he won the title is really interesting in light of what Vettel has achieved: http://grandprix.com/ns/ns00829.html

I would argue that Schumi had lesser team mates compared to Vettel, and got a big day in who they were. In addition Schumi had EVERYTHING shaped around him, inside the team and out. So perhaps that makes Vettel's achievements greater than people are considering...

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

I think Vettel's got everything shaped around him too. You only have to look at the immediate reactions of the team after incidents like at Istanbul and Silverstone in 2010 or in Malaysia this year to see that the balance is in his favour, even if it is more subtle. Maybe it's not quite to the extent as it was with Michael at Ferrari (for one, the rules have tightened up on engines to stop this happening), but it's hard to tell. But Michael's Benetton team was heavily in his favour

As for the team mates, I'd rate Webber alongside Rubens - their records are quite similar as number 2: both had the same number of wins, with Rubens finishing 2nd behind Michael more often than Webber finished 2nd behind Vettel, but Webber giving Vettel a closer run in 2010 and 2012 than Rubens ever did. Vettel's other team mates have been Liuzzi and Bourdais, neither of whom were particularly remarkable in F1

In terms of full-time team mates (up until 2006), Michael had

- Brundle, who matched up reasonably well
- Patrese, who turned 39 during the season
- Lehto, who was unfit and probably driving a very different car to Michael
- Verstappen, who was a rookie and probably driving a very different car to Michael
- Herbert, who did well at Sauber later on
- Irvine, who was/is probably underrated (originally the plan for 96 was to keep Berger, which changed to promoting Larini when Gerhard left)
- Massa, who nearly won the title in 2008

So it's perhaps unfair to suggest that Michael always had weak team mates, certainly from 1995 onwards - perhaps it's the old adage of him making them look weak. Rubens in particular was highly rated through the 90s, had a very strong 1999 and was outstanding in the wet - he was the best driver on the market at the end of 1999. There's a comparison to be made here with Berger at McLaren, who is now regarded as having been a safe number 2 to Senna but was considered one of the best in the field (and certainly the best available) at the time he was hired - McLaren were simply looking to build the best driver line-up possible, not Senna + Slower Guy. This is the bad side of hindsight - sometimes details are missed out

Going back to Herbert, he did state that the team perpously made his car much heavier than Schummy's. It's in one of my old Autosports I think.

That's got to be bullshit, why would any team ever do that, #2 or not. Hey let's lose points on purpose.

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ma twatter (F1/motorsports, footie, games and general nonsense ramblings)

It wouldn't surprise me, though it does seem a bit extreme. He never had a great relationship with Flavio after 1989, and his qualifying performances were quite erratic - a best of 4th in Brazil and Belgium (a wet session)

This interview from September 1995 is quite interesting. Certainly the Benetton was developed around Michael's driving style rather than Herbert's, and it also seems as if for a short while Michael was allowed to view Herbert's data without allowing Johnny to see his. They also "accidentally" put loads of fuel in Herbert's car at Spa which cost him a podium - could this be the weight issue?

http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft00200.html

Which is exactly why discussing it is quite a bit of running around in circles. And, really, the question whether he's "as good as" Schumacher, Senna, ... is completely unrelated to the fact that he has been the most impressive driver this season.

No. What I'm saying is along the lines of James B. Vettel has everything shaped around him, including the best car, massive support from the team, etc, which other drivers didn't have. As I said, it's my personal opinion that other drivers have impressed me more this year than Vettel because they had a tougher battle than him and it's my opinion, that a number of other drivers could have accomplished what he did, if they had the same situation as Vettel does, so I don't regard it as so incredibly outstanding on Vettel's part. However, I'm very impressed with Red Bull, by their car and their team. Even the perfection at their pitstops alone was mind boggling

Alonso also has the team shaped around him ... unfortunately the team isn't working so well - nor does he seem to be enjoying the same relationship with them. However, one of the things that made Schumacher so impressive was his team-building. Vettel clearly works very well with the Red Bull team, and a great team they are.

A consistent team management is the key to championships. Look at Schumacher he had the same team in 94 that he did in 04.

Floodlights are up at Bahrain [International Circuit] so they're set-up for a twilight/night race in 2014.

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011

The point being, if you're going to reference Schumi to compare with Vettel's achievements then there are certain flaws in the argument. Vettel has arguably had a harder team mate in Webber than Schumi had in Brundle, Lehto, Verstappen, Herbert, Irvine and Barrichello. And Vettel didn't choose Webber, whereas Schumi chose almost all his own team mates. In addition, all of those drivers were definitive #2's, even if Rubens attempts to argue otherwise. Then there is the fact Schumi and Ferrari tested 24x7x365 in his Ferrari days, plus had custom Bridgestones amongst other things. It was in the rules back then, but it still created a big performance gap compared to other teams.

I'm not attempting to devalue Schumi's achievements (I was a big Schumi fan up to around 2002), rather just point out that you cannot say Schumi's achievements are of higher merit compared to Vettel just because the Red Bull driver has not had a strong team mate. Yes we'd love to see him up against a Hamilton or Alonso or Raikkonen, but can't we simply just appreciate the legacy he has created himself?

Senna, Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Lauda, Rosberg, etc... did have great team mates to compare themselves with but quite frankly Vettel has done some exceptional things in the past 4 years that people keep forgetting. For example...

- Won 2010 title at the last race despite sitting behind Alonso and Webber in standings
- Won 2012 title at the last race despite sitting behind Alonso in the standings

Best car or not (and that is questionable in 2 of his 4 title years), he's still managed to beat Hamilton, Button, Webber, Alonso and Raikkonen in those years.

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

Isn't that for the WEC race this weekend? Maybe a finish in darkness?

Yes, but they plan to use them for F1 next year (maybe for testing as well?).

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011

Vettel has beaten a field with no less than 4 former World Champions in it (Raikonen Alonso, Button, Hamilton, Schumacher at various times) 4 consecutive times. I don't care if it's the best car, the best team, the best tires, the best engine, act of God, sold his soul to Satan, etc. the kid is flat out the best on the grid.

there's only one more task for him, to win one more championship after several rule changes

schumacher did that in 2003, maybe next year he can equal just that thing and become legendary de facto, plus some pole positions, victories and then the best numbers will belong to him

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Motorsports trend for 2024: climate change ruining races everywhere

Well if he DID sold his soul to the Satan, it is only a ten year long deal. So for 2021 season we should have another champion.

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

Wait, people are still doubting Vettel's ability?

I suppose if you threw Alonso in the 2nd Red Bull for next season, it still wouldn't be fair because Alonso hasn't had the same amount of time with the team. Or everything is built around Vettel. There's always excuses. All Vettel can do is perform with the situation he has been given, and my goodness he's performed.

The guy is class. Probably one of the best drivers we'll ever see for years. Appreciate it, even if it isn't that interesting.

The old argument has always been 'Alonso/Hamilton could do better than him', but now I'm wondering whether those two would have been able to win nine in a row like Vettel. To be near-perfect for nine successive races is a damn hard thing.

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011