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were you born before or after SPA 1991? (MSC F1 Debut)
Before 86%  86%  [ 190 ]
After 14%  14%  [ 30 ]
Total votes: 220
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:20 pm 
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HRT are up for sale again:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104183


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:50 pm 
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not really surprising. Thesan is an investment company. They probably sell it with profit.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:48 am 
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Michael Andretti: Ron Dennis and Bernie Ecclestone conspired to make me look bad.

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Michael believes Dennis and Bernie Ecclestone conspired to make him look bad.

"The international appeal of the CART series was strong in the mid-nineties and Bernie was worried about our series," Michael says. "I think I was used as a tool. I think Bernie and Ron were in it together. I think they wanted to discredit me because I was one of the big guys in Indy cars and they wanted to make me look like a wanker so they could say we couldn't make it in Formula One. That's what I believe happened.

"They were all in it together. They were all making millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. They were all in business together. Racing is secondary in Formula One. Nobody really cares about what's going on the racetrack. It's unbelievable!"


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Adds Michael: "We tested in Spain the day after the race that year and both me and Ayrton were within a tenth of a second of each other and were running times that would have put us on the front row. Ayrton had qualified third and I was about 20th. So I was saying, 'I'm not doing anything different. How can this be?' And they were saying, 'Oh, Ayrton doesn't test that fast.' And I said, 'But our times are quick enough today to be on the front row.'."

Michael swears that a key McLaren team member deactivated his car's active suspension system for qualifying that weekend.

"Someone shut my beacon off in qualifying," he insists disgustedly. "I know who it was--a guy who didn't want me there at all. He shut my beacon off and those were all active cars and my car was just lost. The ride heights were changing and it was downshifting in the middle of the corners and I qualified 16th or something. That night Ron said, 'I want you out of the car after the race.'

"I finished sixth in the race. I passed Barrichello on the last turn on the last lap to get in the points and Ron called and said, 'I want you out of the car.' We fought from race to race. That was the sixth race and I made it all the way to Monza fighting to stay in the car. And finally they put Mika (Hakkinen) in who never was quicker than me in testing."



http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/c ... no361.html


Christ, talk about being bitter.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:29 am 
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Some of what he says is intriguing. I don't believe that Ron would compromise his second ride for some kind of circumvoluted plan to 'take over the world' with Bernie, though.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:35 am 
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lol, Michael. Wondering why he was not popular when he would be away from the F1 circus and back to the US as soon as he could.

a story that I'd really like to read is what exactly happened between Montoya and Ron. From A to Z.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:48 am 
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coldtyre wrote:
Some of what he says is intriguing. I don't believe that Ron would compromise his second ride for some kind of circumvoluted plan to 'take over the world' with Bernie, though.


This is the same Ron who refused to even talk to DC and referred to him as "them" when talking to Mika. So I don't find it THAT hard to believe. Why has this come to light now? And I really don't think Bernie was involved.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39 am 
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Well, blah, blah, this story has been repeated so many times now. While his F1 season wasn't very flattering, he should have moved to Europe to make the most of it. We all know that he was better than what the results say.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:46 am 
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ellis wrote:
coldtyre wrote:
Some of what he says is intriguing. I don't believe that Ron would compromise his second ride for some kind of circumvoluted plan to 'take over the world' with Bernie, though.


This is the same Ron who refused to even talk to DC and referred to him as "them" when talking to Mika. So I don't find it THAT hard to believe. Why has this come to light now? And I really don't think Bernie was involved.



IF it where true, I'd recon Bernie would be involved.

He's right that CART was growing momentum in Europe by that time. Talks of races in Europe. I even remember that Dutch RTL could only get F1 if they also agreed not to broadcast CART.
So Bernie and FOM did fear CART around that time.
So there would be some sense in it to discredit the series by taking it's biggest star, putting it in one of the best F1 cars and making him look like a fool.

While the story sounds plausible there is no way of telling it's true though....


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:48 am 
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Until Tony George came along.........


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:54 am 
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well, yes but that's a different story for another night children :P


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:17 pm 
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I reckon Ron may have hated the fact that Senna once, quite publically, considered a move to CART. Maybe it was an ultimate try to keep Senna at McLaren?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Tobias wrote:
I reckon Ron may have hated the fact that Senna once, quite publically, considered a move to CART.


I believe that was more of publicity stunt by Senna during his on going contract negotiations.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Maybe but he was also getting fed up of the increasing role of driver aids in the sport and he probably saw CART as a genuine alternative for himself as he was getting older. It's no coincidence that F1 hurriedly announced a ban on driver aids for 1994 a few months after Senna's CART test at Phoenix in December of 1992.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Ferrari wrote:
Michael Andretti: Ron Dennis and Bernie Ecclestone conspired to make me look bad.

Quote:
Michael believes Dennis and Bernie Ecclestone conspired to make him look bad.

"The international appeal of the CART series was strong in the mid-nineties and Bernie was worried about our series," Michael says. "I think I was used as a tool. I think Bernie and Ron were in it together. I think they wanted to discredit me because I was one of the big guys in Indy cars and they wanted to make me look like a wanker so they could say we couldn't make it in Formula One. That's what I believe happened.

"They were all in it together. They were all making millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. They were all in business together. Racing is secondary in Formula One. Nobody really cares about what's going on the racetrack. It's unbelievable!"


Quote:
Adds Michael: "We tested in Spain the day after the race that year and both me and Ayrton were within a tenth of a second of each other and were running times that would have put us on the front row. Ayrton had qualified third and I was about 20th. So I was saying, 'I'm not doing anything different. How can this be?' And they were saying, 'Oh, Ayrton doesn't test that fast.' And I said, 'But our times are quick enough today to be on the front row.'."

Michael swears that a key McLaren team member deactivated his car's active suspension system for qualifying that weekend.

"Someone shut my beacon off in qualifying," he insists disgustedly. "I know who it was--a guy who didn't want me there at all. He shut my beacon off and those were all active cars and my car was just lost. The ride heights were changing and it was downshifting in the middle of the corners and I qualified 16th or something. That night Ron said, 'I want you out of the car after the race.'

"I finished sixth in the race. I passed Barrichello on the last turn on the last lap to get in the points and Ron called and said, 'I want you out of the car.' We fought from race to race. That was the sixth race and I made it all the way to Monza fighting to stay in the car. And finally they put Mika (Hakkinen) in who never was quicker than me in testing."



http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/c ... no361.html


Christ, talk about being bitter.


It's almost the same Alonso said after 2007.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:50 pm 
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Montoya also felt he was threaten differently by Dennis after Dennis felt betrayed by him because of the "Tennis" incident in 2005.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Fish88 wrote:
Montoya also felt he was threaten differently by Dennis after Dennis felt betrayed by him because of the "Tennis" incident in 2005.


What was the Tennis incident Fish?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Montoya fell off a motorbike or mountain bike but claimed he fell playing tennis. He was forced to miss the Bahrain and Imola GPs due to the shoulder injury he sustained.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:11 pm 
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Michael Andretti was a much better driver than his part 1993 F1 season suggested. He may well have been treated differently by McLaren (Wouldn't be the only driver to claim this sort of thing while a #2 at McLaren) & maybe this did harm him in some way, However he could have done a lot of things differently to help himself.

Don't forget that Michael did a couple test's with Mclaren in 1991/1992 & by all accounts did an impressive job & this was the reason he got the 1993 race seat. However once he got the race seat refusing to move to europe (Because Mario hadn't when he raced in F1) meant he wasn't getting to know the team, wasn't getting to know/understand the F1/European culture, Maybe didn't have as good an understanding of an F1 car as he needed & most importantly wasn't do as much testing as he should have been doing in order to get to grips with the car.

If he had done all that he'd have been much more prepared & he almost certainly would have had a better season which may well have seen other teams show an interest in hiring him should McLaren have still dropped him.


Move forward a few years & look at what Jacques Villeneuve did, He moved back to Europe, did as much testing as he could & spent as much time around the team as he could. So by the time the 1996 season started he knew the car, the team & quite a few of the tracks which allowed him to be competitive from race 1.



As far as Bernie goes, Its been suggested since the early 90s that he did see CART as a threat, Not sure he'd go as far as conspiring with an F1 team to sabotage a CART champions F1 career to make CART look bad but been honest nothing would surprise me when Bernie's involved.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:59 am 
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StefMeister wrote:
Michael Andretti was a much better driver than his part 1993 F1 season suggested. He may well have been treated differently by McLaren (Wouldn't be the only driver to claim this sort of thing while a #2 at McLaren) & maybe this did harm him in some way, However he could have done a lot of things differently to help himself.

Don't forget that Michael did a couple test's with Mclaren in 1991/1992 & by all accounts did an impressive job & this was the reason he got the 1993 race seat. However once he got the race seat refusing to move to europe (Because Mario hadn't when he raced in F1) meant he wasn't getting to know the team, wasn't getting to know/understand the F1/European culture, Maybe didn't have as good an understanding of an F1 car as he needed & most importantly wasn't do as much testing as he should have been doing in order to get to grips with the car.

If he had done all that he'd have been much more prepared & he almost certainly would have had a better season which may well have seen other teams show an interest in hiring him should McLaren have still dropped him.


Move forward a few years & look at what Jacques Villeneuve did, He moved back to Europe, did as much testing as he could & spent as much time around the team as he could. So by the time the 1996 season started he knew the car, the team & quite a few of the tracks which allowed him to be competitive from race 1.



As far as Bernie goes, Its been suggested since the early 90s that he did see CART as a threat, Not sure he'd go as far as conspiring with an F1 team to sabotage a CART champions F1 career to make CART look bad but been honest nothing would surprise me when Bernie's involved.


I pretty much agree with you there. He shot himself in the foot by his stubbornness/ arrogance by not moving. Yes he probably didn't have equal treatment from the team, for the life of me I can't believe that they would have turned off his traction controll, there would have been copious amounts of telemetry data for this, and he would have screamed high heaven at the time if this was the case. More like he didn't get aero updates or springs and other components (not uncommon for the whole history of F1 and still happens today!) I think this coupled with his everybody in F1 is out to get me attitude has made him build this up in his mind to the point where he has no other conclusion to draw apart from "conspiricy".


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:42 am 
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I think there is a mitigating circumstance for Andretti and the moving-story.

Let's not forget that Senna that year used to turn up minutes before practice, the team not even knowing if he would drive that weekend or not. It's true that there could have been a lot mor involvement of Michael in the team, but let's not forget Senna treated the team pretty badly too.

Ron always had his favourite drivers and the fact that he made Senna a three times champion would have always been difficult for Andretti to cope with.


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