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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:21 am 
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Right you are about ownership. As far as why, I'd say if there was knowledge of lightning storms coming and no decision to clear stands earlier for spectator safety, it's a possibility. Like I said, "Could" not "Definitely will".

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:01 am 
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Not arguing the logic of it, just saying that history has shown human behaviour (particularly amongst western societies) like to bring on the lawyer and start the liability game when a death is involved.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:58 am 
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I think that when there is lightning around, a smart person would get to a safe location.

Philthy82 wrote:
Not arguing the logic of it, just saying that history has shown human behavior (particularly amongst western societies) like to bring on the lawyer and start the liability game when a death is involved.


And that especially applies for when you have stupid people. Not that I am suggesting that these people are stupid, as that would be a bit disrespectful right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:19 am 
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I just read on an Associated Press article on the internet, about 10 minutes before the tragedy fans were told to get to seek shelter and evacuate the grandstands. It was also said that the tragedy occurred in the parking lot, and that the person killed was about to get into their car when the lightning bolt hit.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:06 pm 
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simonracer wrote:
I think that when there is lightning around, a smart person would get to a safe location.

Philthy82 wrote:
Not arguing the logic of it, just saying that history has shown human behavior (particularly amongst western societies) like to bring on the lawyer and start the liability game when a death is involved.


And that especially applies for when you have stupid people. Not that I am suggesting that these people are stupid, as that would be a bit disrespectful right now.


How could you sue someone? Isnt it classed as an "act of god"?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:17 pm 
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Scotty wrote:
So what some are suggesting here is trying to say is that whenever lightning /thunderstorms appear in the vicinity of a racing event we should just pull out all the stops and call it off, evacuate everyone? The circuit managers and event organisers should "get their thumbs out of their arse" and just evacuate up to 100,000 people just because some yellow to orange rain marks are 50-100km away on the radar? Don't be ridiculous. Not a single second of racing would've occurred on Sunday at the 2009 Malaysian GP.

It's not like it was a hurricane/tornado/monsoon/cyclone was heading to the track, it was a dime a dozen (I'm guessing) a summer storm, which every country gets for long periods of time. The odds of being struck by lightning are half a million to one, the odds of being killed by it are two million to one. It was a freak accident, no-one is liable to an act of god. They could've been struck by lightning at the track, or walking from their car to their front door at home.


This was not what would be considered a typical popcorn thunderstorm, whose formation, duration and direction cannot be easily predicted, like the ones you would see in Malaysia. Look at the radar on page 9. The track knew where the storms were, they knew how fast they were moving, and they knew when they would reach the track. The track did not get the people out fast enough.

This isn't a new phenomenon for NASCAR either. Every year, at some point during the Talladega weekend in April, the track will go under either a Severe Thunderstorm or a Tornado Warning. That's 250,000 people that have to be looked after, and every time the track makes sure that everyone is as best protected as they can be. Pocono failed to do the same yesterday, and it has unfortunately cost someone their life. Is it grounds for a lawsuit? No. But they do need to improve their procedures.

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Jeff Gluck's Twitter wrote:
FWIW, @poconoraceway tweeted at 4:21 p.m. that a storm with "severe lightning" was in the area. Cars were still on track until 4:42 p.m.

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Last edited by RtN on Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:51 pm 
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highgroove wrote:
simonracer wrote:
I think that when there is lightning around, a smart person would get to a safe location.

Philthy82 wrote:
Not arguing the logic of it, just saying that history has shown human behavior (particularly amongst western societies) like to bring on the lawyer and start the liability game when a death is involved.


And that especially applies for when you have stupid people. Not that I am suggesting that these people are stupid, as that would be a bit disrespectful right now.


How could you sue someone? Isnt it classed as an "act of god"?


I know some tracks list on the back of their tickets that by purchasing a ticket to a race, you remove them from being held liable for anything that happens to the individual buying the ticket...they may twist it around to include "acts of god".


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:24 pm 
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I think all tracks do - the "Motorsport is Dangerous" clause.

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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:47 pm 
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Here is a statement released by the track.

Quote:
As reported yesterday, a long time member of our Pocono Raceway family, a spectator has passed away following a lightning strike. According to Monroe County Coroner Robert Allen the name of the deceased is 41 year old Moosic, Pennsylvania resident Brian Zimmerman Additionally; nine other individuals were transferred to local hospitals as a result of two separate lightning strikes.
At approximately 5:01 p.m. Eastern Time, the first lightning strike occurred on property inside our Grandstand Parking area, located near Gate 5A. A Pocono Raceway Grandstand Fire unit was stationed in the vicinity and witnessed the actual strike. The response was immediate as the unit reported the incident to our control tower and advised spectators were injured. CPR was started immediately to Mr. Zimmerman by a friend on the scene.
Within a matter of 3 minutes, medical personnel and additional emergency services reported on the scene and took control of treatment to individuals. EMT responders were approached by additional individuals who reported symptoms related to the lightning strike. Those affected were taken to the Raceway Medical Centers, where they were examined and transported to local area hospitals for treatment and further evaluation. A total of nine individuals were treated as a result of the initial lightning strike.
At approximately 6:35 p.m. Eastern Time, the control tower was notified of a second possible lightning strike in the vicinity near Gate 3. The individual was immediately transported to Pocono Raceway's Infield Medical Center where they were initially treated for minor injuries before being transported to Pocono Medical Center in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania for further evaluation.
At this point in time, the one individual that was in critical condition has now been upgraded to stable. Some have been treated and released. Others involved are pending release as early as today and all are in good spirits. The safety of all guests to Pocono Raceway is of the utmost importance to our entire staff. This tragic event is at the forefront of all of our thoughts and prayers. We will learn from the incident and continue to implement strategies to help ensure the safety of fans and all attendees at future events at Pocono Raceway.


That's good that the other person that was critically injured is improving.


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Todd Bodine apologized.
Quote:
@Team_Onion: Saw the replay of the wreck, need to apologize to @
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Piquet, my fault for sure. Sorry to all for acting like an ass!!

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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Gael wrote:
Todd Bodine apologized.
Quote:
@Team_Onion: Saw the replay of the wreck, need to apologize to @
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nelson
Piquet, my fault for sure. Sorry to all for acting like an ass!!


It took him 2 days to realize what everybody else already knew?


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:13 pm 
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He actually owned up to it?

Huh.


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:18 pm 
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When it comes to the debate about how the impending storm was handled, I'd say they did well considering.

Yeah, there was a lot of red on the radar, and it was coming in fast, but it was going to take a lot for me to get up and out of my seats. I'm not crazy, and I know bad weather when I see it coming. They called the red flag, and my Mom and I headed right under the grandstands. There was no way we were walking through a storm with lightning like that to our parking spot, wading through puddles 3-4 inches deep. We huddled under the stands with thousands of other pretty spooked people, and we waited it out.

It's crazy man, I saw the flash of lightning that caused the deaths and injuries. It was scary shit, and the speedway did what it could. In no way, shape or form would I have accepted postponement of the race to Monday, considering the amount of money I've put into this trip. Multiply my concern by at least half of the people in attendance, and you see why NASCAR's hands were tied.

Get it to halfway, and hope for the best. That's it. It was up to the fans to play it safe, after all.


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:21 pm 
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And, oh yeah, HOLY SHIT THE FINISH. He had a strong car all day, as we watched him picking them off, one by one. Then, at the final restart, I thought exactly what Starlancer posted above (nice call on that one, btw), hoping for some kind of miracle before the rain.

Lo and behold, it happened exactly like that. Not very often your four least favourite drivers all wreck, and your favourite miraculously pulls through for the win.


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:40 pm 
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Joe A wrote:
I think all tracks do - the "Motorsport is Dangerous" clause.

My Daytona tickets had a disclaimer to that effect on the back. If I could find them I would post what it says.

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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:47 pm 
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well, as an example, this is on the back of F1 tickets

Quote:
Motor racing is dangeorus and noisy. Sancioning bodies, FOA, Formula One Management, FIA, Allsport Management s.a., APM Sport Limited, Allsopp Parker and Marsh Limited, organizers of the event (including officials, marshals, rescue and medical staff), competitors and drivers, are not responsible for any loss or damage, howsoever caused, to you to the maximum extend permittted by law (except in the case of death or personal injury caused by negliance of the above parties)


I guess other series have similar warnings


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:49 pm 
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That ticket thing wrote:
(except in the case of death or personal injury caused by negliance of the above parties)


A good WE'LL WIN CASH 4 U lawyer will twist that around to state that the track was negligent in not ensuring the fan's safety by closing the stands off with lightening "in the area".

I know, I know....I'm not endorsing such a thing. Just sayin'.

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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Gael wrote:
Todd Bodine apologized.
Quote:
@Team_Onion: Saw the replay of the wreck, need to apologize to @
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Piquet, my fault for sure. Sorry to all for acting like an ass!!

Not before my friend James was blocked by Todd from twitter, for saying this:
@Team_Onion You're making us New Yorkers look bad with interviews like that. :\ That incident was all your fault, check the replay next time.


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 Post subject: Re: Pocono/Iowa
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Just got back to my aunt's in Bristol, CT... noticed Woodski's location. haha

Anyway, the back of the Pocono ticket reads...

"The holder of this ticket expressly assumes all risk incident to the event, whether occurring prior to, during, or subsequent to the actual conduct of the event, and agrees that all event participants, sanctioning bodies and all employees, agents, officers and directors of Pocono Raceway, its affiliates and subsidiaries are hereby released from any all claims arising from the event."

They pretty much covered all their legal bases with that one, I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Scotty wrote:
RtN wrote:
snip


Regardless, unless you were standing on the very top of the grandstands wearing a mesh singlet and metal helmet waving a flag with a metal point at the top, the chances of you getting struck by lightning are incredibly tiny, yeah maybe it was a little more in an intense storm like the one you described, it's still one in a million thing. I could understand if they knew > 100km/h 60mph winds were coming and that caused a fatality by a falling object then fair enough, but this wasn't that.

And no, I know the US are shocking with liability, but chances of anyone being sued are incredibly tiny.


I'm not saying that they must do completely outlandish things to guarantee everyone's safety, but it's not difficult either. It's as simple as telling everyone to stay under the grandstands as Andre did or simply getting them out sooner.

Obviously with flag poles and such like around it's not likely that a person will be struck by lightning but if small things can be done to completely mitigate the risk I think they should be done, if only as a courtesy.

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Yeah, I know he's mad and I don't care. I do not care. I did not care then. I do not care now. I'm here to race him.


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