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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Peugeot908 wrote:
I started watching NASCAR in the very early 90s. Remember when there was a short track season? Now Phoenix and Loudon are considered short tracks. *shakes head.

Remember when every week was a different challenge of a track and no tracks looked the same? Now every week is a version of Kansas.

Do you remember watching a race and your driver did not have a good handling car? And how you would sit there and pray for a caution lap after lap always checking to see where the leader was, because your driver was on the verge of going a lap down? And knowing that even if he got his car handling better, he would have to battle tooth and nail to get back onto the lead lap if he did get lapped?

Remember how actually completing all 500 miles at Darlington meant something? Even in the 1996 Southern 500, only 3 cars finished on the lead lap. Now you can finish on the lead lap and finish 21st. If that is the case, what is the point of 500 miles? Why not 200? Because at the end of every race, none of the major teams have dropped out and all the major drivers are all on the lead lap nose to tail behind the safety car. So what is the point of the first 300 or 400 miles if everyone gets back onto the lead lap?

When I watch racing, I watch it for the racing, not cars being paraded behind the safety car. Watch any super speedway race before 2000, and there is tons of green flag racing. Green flag runs of 2+ pit stops all the time.

So all NASCAR has become now is entertainment. The script is have a caution with 10 laps to go to bunch the field up. Have a 4 wide finish were everyone wrecks and have everyone say what a great race it was. Repeat that script enough and that is the finish everyone expects week after week all the while ruining the races that really were special. Remember Craven vs. Busch at 2003 Darlington? How great was that? Or Earnhardt vs. Labonte at 2000 Atlanta or Harvick and Gordon at 2001 Atlanta? All those races had less then 10 cars on the lead lap. So what NASCAR needs to understand is that yes, you are going to get races that are boring and someone runs away from the field, but now and then you will get those great races that naturally come down to the final lap. NASCAR needs to let those races develop naturally and that way they will truly be special.


Interestingly enough, the 2000s(decade) was the first decade where NASCAR didn't cut a short track from its Cup schedule.(1990s: North Wilkesboro, 1980s: Nashville, 1970s: the elimination of all races less than 250 miles,etc). Not really fond of Phoenix and Loudon being considered short tracks, they typically don't have as near as many cautions as short track races do. It almost seems like NASCAR wants a standard playing field each weekend, like stick and ball sports. I don't follow any of those, but aren't most if not all fields they compete on the exact same dimensions each week?


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:54 pm 
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As a casual NASCAR fan (having truly picked up on it in '99, the first of my two years living in the US) I've never really followed it so much since I moved back to Norway and my driver, Terry Labonte, retired. But I've kept an eye on it every now and then and I keep seeing the same things already mentioned. I don't really have a whole lot more to add to the theories as to what has happened over the years, but it has definitely made for an interesting read!


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:37 pm 
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Jeff wrote:
Interestingly enough, the 2000s(decade) was the first decade where NASCAR didn't cut a short track from its Cup schedule.(1990s: North Wilkesboro, 1980s: Nashville, 1970s: the elimination of all races less than 250 miles,etc).


:o

That because there's no more short tracks to cut!


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Can we add the joke that is NASCAR license approval to the bonfire?


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:55 am 
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Jeff wrote:
Interestingly enough, the 2000s(decade) was the first decade where NASCAR didn't cut a short track from its Cup schedule.(1990s: North Wilkesboro, 1980s: Nashville, 1970s: the elimination of all races less than 250 miles,etc).

I wouldn't really blame the elimination of all races less than 250 miles on NASCAR though, that was what Winston wanted.

It's all been about money like other people pointed out since the start. Back in the early days NASCAR fined anybody who ran in anything except a NASCAR race! (and got found out.)


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:01 pm 
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And if you ran an outlaw race, as non-sanctioned races were referred to at the time, you also had all your championship points revoked, and that policy was rather typical at the time - I think the reason Bill Holland, the 1949 Indy winner, went to NASCAR was because he had been barred from AAA racing for competing in a non-AAA race.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Joe A wrote:
And if you ran an outlaw race, as non-sanctioned races were referred to at the time, you also had all your championship points revoked, and that policy was rather typical at the time - I think the reason Bill Holland, the 1949 Indy winner, went to NASCAR was because he had been barred from AAA racing for competing in a non-AAA race.


He ran in a two lap charity race. And he got banned for that. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:46 pm 
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dicksplash wrote:
Joe A wrote:
And if you ran an outlaw race, as non-sanctioned races were referred to at the time, you also had all your championship points revoked, and that policy was rather typical at the time - I think the reason Bill Holland, the 1949 Indy winner, went to NASCAR was because he had been barred from AAA racing for competing in a non-AAA race.


He ran in a two lap charity race. And he got banned for that. :lol:


Wow that really is pathetic :o


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:13 pm 
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And the thing about Bill France Sr and Jr not making silly decisions isn't true either. Anyone heard about the time when Sr. decided to ban the HEMI engine? We ended up with a season where only Ford won because Dodge and Plymouth boycotted. And then when he unbanned the HEMI engine Dodge and Plymouth won almost everything for about two seasons and Ford boycotted for nearly a season.

And don't forget the time when Curtis Turner tried to organize a drivers' union. Guess what Bill said? He said he'd use a bloody pistol to stop them! I.E shoot them. And basically told Turner and Tim Flock to f*** off (in less nasty terms), and there you have it, two of NASCAR's most popular and famous drivers are banned for life although they were reinstated. Fireball Roberts was banned to start of with but he was reinstated when he backlashed.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:52 am 
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simonracer wrote:
And the thing about Bill France Sr and Jr not making silly decisions isn't true either. Anyone heard about the time when Sr. decided to ban the HEMI engine? We ended up with a season where only Ford won because Dodge and Plymouth boycotted. And then when he unbanned the HEMI engine Dodge and Plymouth won almost everything for about two seasons and Ford boycotted for nearly a season.

And don't forget the time when Curtis Turner tried to organize a drivers' union. Guess what Bill said? He said he'd use a bloody pistol to stop them! I.E shoot them. And basically told Turner and Tim Flock to f*** off (in less nasty terms), and there you have it, two of NASCAR's most popular and famous drivers are banned for life although they were reinstated. Fireball Roberts was banned to start of with but he was reinstated when he backlashed.

Maybe that's another key problem with Brian France... he's not as strict and ballsy as his predecessors.

Really, do you think Brian and his cronies would have the balls to ban Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr for even ONE race if they brought an illegal engine, much less the 12 races Carl Long had to deal with for doing the same thing?

I know, "Oh, but then the fans won't show up or watch the races if their favorite driver isn't competing!". Well, tough shit. You violate the rules, you shouldn't get any special treatment just because you're part of a multi-million dollar superteam IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:25 am 
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I don't know if I'd want a combo of big balls and little brains running the show, tbh.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:05 am 
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Mobil1fan wrote:
I don't know if I'd want a combo of big balls and little brains running the show, tbh.

That would probably be even worse than it is now.

Cartman wrote:
Maybe that's another key problem with Brian France... he's not as strict and ballsy as his predecessors.

Really, do you think Brian and his cronies would have the balls to ban Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr for even ONE race if they brought an illegal engine, much less the 12 races Carl Long had to deal with for doing the same thing?

I know, "Oh, but then the fans won't show up or watch the races if their favorite driver isn't competing!". Well, tough shit. You violate the rules, you shouldn't get any special treatment just because you're part of a multi-million dollar superteam IMO.

Maybe that's another key problem with Brian France... he's not as strict and ballsy as his predecessors.

Really, do you think Brian and his cronies would have the balls to ban Jimmie Johnson or Dale Jr for even ONE race if they brought an illegal engine, much less the 12 races Carl Long had to deal with for doing the same thing?

I know, "Oh, but then the fans won't show up or watch the races if their favorite driver isn't competing!". Well, tough shit. You violate the rules, you shouldn't get any special treatment just because you're part of a multi-million dollar superteam IMO.

What they did with Carl Long was wrong.

Bill Sr was certainly tough. They didn't call him "Big Bill" for nothing.

The problem is that back in the 60's a lot of people thought Big Bill nearly killed NASCAR when he banned the HEMI engines and sparked the Ford/Dodge/Plymouth boycott. I think perhaps his toughness got in the way in the end. Bill Jr probably did the best job of running the show.

It would also be interesting to have the point of someone who remembers the 60's, 70's, 80's and maybe even the 50's well, to see what people thought back then about the leaders.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:40 am 
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From what I can tell, a lot of them say that Bill Sr and Jr were just as damn crooked.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:16 am 
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Mobil1fan wrote:
From what I can tell, a lot of them say that Bill Sr and Jr were just as damn crooked.

The difference is between Brian France and Bill France Sr and Jr is that they realised their mistakes. Brian and his companions don't, they make it worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:16 pm 
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simonracer wrote:
Mobil1fan wrote:
From what I can tell, a lot of them say that Bill Sr and Jr were just as damn crooked.

The difference is between Brian France and Bill France Sr and Jr is that they realised their mistakes. Brian and his companions don't, they make it worse.

Well, the recent loosening of the reigns on the drivers as well as going back to spoiler and bringing back manufacturer identity in the Nationwide cars could be looked as realizing mistakes and trying to fix them with a positive outcome. The Chase is the biggest mistake that needs to be rectified though and they just don't seem to get it. I actually wouldn't mind the Chase if it only rewarded the regular season points leader sufficiently to where he has a considerable edge going into the Chase. But as it is now, there's little motivation to watch the regular season from a championship standpoint as the fight to get into the Chase is meaningless. The star drivers can DNF a quarter of the races and still get in easily just based on how they usually run. I don't watch stick and ball sports so I don't know but isn't the fight to get into the playoffs a lot more interesting and unpredictable in them than it is in NASCAR?


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:52 pm 
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Hotdogger wrote:
I don't watch stick and ball sports so I don't know but isn't the fight to get into the playoffs a lot more interesting and unpredictable in them than it is in NASCAR?

Try watching a Major League Baseball playoff race this season. Sometimes their seasons have come down to one-game playoffs (the 163rd game of the season for two teams, for one) and sometimes playoff spots are decided because of tiebreakers (mostly based off of head-to-head record).

Playoff races in the NFL can be quite interesting, too. Take this year for instance. The Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks absolutely had to win their last games of the season just to make the postseason. Seattle made it to the divisional round, but the Packers are now in the Super Bowl and are favorites to win.

And then there's the NHL. Last year, there was one playoff spot up for grabs in the Eastern Conference between the New York Rangers and Philadelphia Flyers, and the last game of the regular season was between those two teams. Win and you're in, lose and you're booking your offseason tee times. The Rangers entered that game in a playoff spot IIRC, and the Flyers beat them in a shootout and that put Philadelphia into the playoffs and the Rangers on the outside looking in. The Flyers I might add went all the way to the Stanley Cup Finals, and lost to the Chicago Blackhawks in six games.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Mobil1fan wrote:
Can we add the joke that is NASCAR license approval to the bonfire?

The only outstanding failure I saw this year was Joe Aramendia wrecking Mario Gosselin while like 5 laps down.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:35 pm 
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The one Mexican driver smashing the piss out of the 35 at Gateway was another, same with JWT, even with Stenhouse at the beginning of 2010. Even if guys aren't wrecking, they're not pulling miracles out of their asses and pulling a Newman or Busch, and get cast aside. If you make guys wait a while to move up until they've proven something (at minimum competency), the odds will be better they'll make something happen. Perhaps they won't make it to Cup, but they'll have a better shot of doing something without totally embarrassing themselves and the sport in finding out what they have.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Hotdogger wrote:
simonracer wrote:
Mobil1fan wrote:
From what I can tell, a lot of them say that Bill Sr and Jr were just as damn crooked.

The difference is between Brian France and Bill France Sr and Jr is that they realised their mistakes. Brian and his companions don't, they make it worse.

Well, the recent loosening of the reigns on the drivers as well as going back to spoiler and bringing back manufacturer identity in the Nationwide cars could be looked as realizing mistakes and trying to fix them with a positive outcome. The Chase is the biggest mistake that needs to be rectified though and they just don't seem to get it. I actually wouldn't mind the Chase if it only rewarded the regular season points leader sufficiently to where he has a considerable edge going into the Chase. But as it is now, there's little motivation to watch the regular season from a championship standpoint as the fight to get into the Chase is meaningless. The star drivers can DNF a quarter of the races and still get in easily just based on how they usually run. I don't watch stick and ball sports so I don't know but isn't the fight to get into the playoffs a lot more interesting and unpredictable in them than it is in NASCAR?

You have a point about the Nationwide series, but there are a lot more problems then good things right now.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuck you, NASCAR
PostPosted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:15 am 
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Wayne wrote:
Hotdogger wrote:
I don't watch stick and ball sports so I don't know but isn't the fight to get into the playoffs a lot more interesting and unpredictable in them than it is in NASCAR?

Try watching a Major League Baseball playoff race this season. Sometimes their seasons have come down to one-game playoffs (the 163rd game of the season for two teams, for one) and sometimes playoff spots are decided because of tiebreakers (mostly based off of head-to-head record).

Playoff races in the NFL can be quite interesting, too. Take this year for instance. The Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks absolutely had to win their last games of the season just to make the postseason. Seattle made it to the divisional round, but the Packers are now in the Super Bowl and are favorites to win.

And then there's the NHL. Last year, there was one playoff spot up for grabs in the Eastern Conference between the New York Rangers and Philadelphia Flyers, and the last game of the regular season was between those two teams. Win and you're in, lose and you're booking your offseason tee times. The Rangers entered that game in a playoff spot IIRC, and the Flyers beat them in a shootout and that put Philadelphia into the playoffs and the Rangers on the outside looking in. The Flyers I might add went all the way to the Stanley Cup Finals, and lost to the Chicago Blackhawks in six games.

Thanks for posting those examples, they all sound very exciting. In comparison, the only time a genuine championship contender was in doubt of making the Chase was when Gordon and Stewart missed it in 05 and 06 respectively. Maybe they need to make the Chase field consist of 5 or less drivers only. Then it would be really exciting to follow the regular season and see who makes it in. It would also give more non-Chasers a chance to raise their position to 6th in the season standings.


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