TBK-Light.com

OK. No fence

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excellent find HSHMan, as always

http://s7.directupload.net/images/121128/xq7wq2yp.gif

Clearly Green. I don't get the point.

what I do find really strange is, that Red Bull have asked Vergne to make sure to be more than 20 seconds behind Vettel, because at Red Bull apparently they knew about this, and weren't sure if it was legal or not. In the end it was only 19,2 seconds.

Gladly there was a green flag after all so the discussion is not needed.

But I think it is 'not done' you are able to ask another team to help, and I don't care it if it the 'B team'. That should not be allowed... it's quite different than asking a teammate to do something.

I love the sound of the medical chase car in that amateur footage.

FIA said Ferrari has no chance, because of all the reasons we've already mentioned here. The end, better luck next year.

You know Senna pulled EXACTLY the same shit...only Alonso hasn't tried to kill someone yet.

Edit: completely fucked up the quote thing. Was in response to NVirkkula's earlier post

Piquet? No disrespect, but I really don't believe he didn't knew anything about Briatore's and Symmonds plan.

What does "my list" have to do with Ayrton Senna? Someone asked why Vettel isn't hated as much as Alonso or Hamilton and I just listed a few things I've heard about.

Your comment is arrogant, you say Senna did "exactly the same shit" yet you fail to give an example of listed points like I did. Also, it's pathetic to suggest "Senna tried to kill Prost in Suzuka 1989" when it wasn't his intention or the outcome of the incident. It was a dangerous move, but Fernando has done them also (Monza 2011).

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

The topic title "Nuts", is that refering to the race or to the discussions that are now happening?

Both, probably.

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

A little from column "A" and a pinch from column "B"...

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

You have a picture of Senna on your avatar, and your response to the question about Alonso makes it very clear that you do not approve of him for the very reasons you have stated. Yes you have said that these points can be argued but the implications are that you believe these points to be true. I have quoted your comments because I find them very contradictory, because you seem to idolize someone that possessed exactly the same qualities yet with the same brush dismiss some one for the same qualities. Don't get me wrong Senna was my hero as a kid, and I have never and will never question his abilities, but over the last 20 years of watching F1 I have come the realization that Senna was, well...an obsessive lunatic who literally believed that God was on his side and he could do no wrong. Alain Prost would and has said the same.

So here are some points off the top of my head.
- he's not taking any responsibility when he makes a mistake Correct me if i'm wrong but did he ever say I stuffed up in Monaco 1988, he packed his things up and went home thats for sure, Adelaide 1992 with Mansell, again I don't believe he said my bad.
- he's always demanded number one status in any given team Name Johnny Dumfries ring any bells, I do also believe that he had a say in Gerhard Burger joining McLaren
- everything the team does to help him is good See the entire 1993 season for example of this or the many instances in 1989 when he tried to talk Ron Dennis into giving him the good equipment first
- if he loses the race, it was because the car was bad and the team didn't help himSee 1993,1992
- he's whining to media about everything he thinks is wrong, even lying about it or at least telling his perspective as the full truth Watch any Press conference with Alain Prost next to him or when he talks about the FIA in particularly Jean Marie Balestre
- he's ready to cheatJapan 1990..this is when he deliberately took Prost off and was why I said Alonso hasn't tried to kill someone yet, see other drivers reactions at the time about him not giving a shit about their personal safety
- he's betrayed his employerHeld McLaren hostage for the ENTIRE 1993 season
- he demands things from FIA during the raceJapan 1990 wanting to move pole to the other side of the track, see drivers conference in Germany 1991
- he's only seeing himself as a perfect driverSelf explanatory and he believed that he was blessed by God
- he gave himself a "perfect ten" for this season, saying that he did a perfect job and only lost the title because of LotusAgain self explanatory

Ron Dennis said that Ayrton was extremely angry with himself over the Monaco crash. I wouldn't know about Adelaide.



There's a difference between simply demanding no.1 status (Lotus also liked Dumfries' money) and attempting to blackmail your team boss into giving it to you, which Alonso did. Gerhard and Ayrton were very good friends and far less likely to cause turmoil together.



Balestre was a Nazi when he was younger and a Nazi when he ran the FIA. Mosley and Todt are nothing compared to him.



Pole was moved from the other side of the track in the first place to give Prost the unfair advantage. Senna told Balestre that if pole wasn't moved back to the clean side and Prost beat him to turn 1 because of it, Prost wouldn't make it to turn 2.

At Germany in 1991, Senna did make the suggestion that cones be put in but every driver voted in favour of it when it was put to them by Balestre. His point was vindicated somewhat by Comas' violent accident a year later.


I never saw Senna race, I don't know if I would have been a fan of his. I doubt it. I've never read a piece of literature that paints Senna in a bad light, which makes it harder to be objective. As far as Alonso is concerned, he went on my shit list when he attempted to stick up Ron Dennis at Budapest in 2007. I can see his talent and his speed, but I don't support him.

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Dan Wheldon ¦ 1978-2011
Marco Simoncelli ¦ 1987-2011
Jules Bianchi ¦ 1989-2015
Justin Wilson ¦ 1978-2015

Yeah, I know he's mad and I don't care. I do not care. I did not care then. I do not care now. I'm here to race him.

Don't forget, Senna was to blame for Mansell retiring at Suzuka in 1991 also, the rotter.

And I've still never forgiven him for that. That cost Mansell the title that year, darn it.

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

Considering what we all know about the aftermath of Monaco 1988, Ayrton locking himself in his apartment, hiding from the team, being in tears for many hours after the race, etc... I think it's clear to all he knew he made a mistake.



Agreed. Balestre had a personal agenda against Ayrton, that was clear to all inside and outside F1 post 1989 Japan and through 1990. The interviews from other drivers and team owners during Adelaide 1990 (about the punishment handed to Ayrton for the accident and disqualification from Japan) speaks volumes about Balestre's behaviour and vindicates Ayrton.



Agreed again. The point is that Ayrton made demands about safety, not just for himself but all his competitors around him (for which he had huge amounts of compassion for, even Prost...). He also went to some lengths to avoid confrontation with the governing body (Balestre...) in driver briefings by asking the drivers he was close friends with (Berger for instance) to bring up points about safety. The cones at Hockenheim in 1991 being one such point... Alonso on the other hand demands things that entirely revolve around him, which is fair for him, but not relevant or in any way can be compared to how Ayrton behaved.

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BTCC Pick Em's Champion 2010
Formula Fun Cup Champion 2013
http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk

Well, RtN and kals already answered most of your one sided comments. 1993 McLaren was a complete dog due underpowered Ford engines. And Williams hired Prost for that season so Ayrton was left with no other choice than drive the season with McLaren. That's nowhere near what Alonso did in 2007 or this year. Ayrton never gave him "a perfect ten" for any seasons, he always knew there was something that could have been done better and he would go on a detail level to explain what it was (not so self explanatory, in my opinion). Ayrton did believe that God was on his side, Fernando has claimed that the Lady Fortuna has been against him and she owes him more luck. Ayrton never tried to blackmail God that way, he tried to be a good christian instead and did a lot charity work, which still lives on.

And why exactly do I have this picture of Ayrton as my avatar? You, webbsy, seem to think that it's that because I idolize him over everything, which isn't the case. I see Senna as a legend, but also as a man that was controversial, sometimes on grey area, I give you that. His death touched me deeply as I saw it happen when I was only 7-years old. I still remember that day very clearly, as you might imagine. Now fast forward to year 2002, TBK fameflame forum is quite fresh and I decided to join it after browsing it for months. I tried to find a nice avatar picture of Gilles Villeneuve, but couldn't find anything that wasn't already in use or good enough. So I found this picture and as I liked JPS livery and Senna, I thought it was a cool picture for avatar.

So yes, I do like Senna and his legacy, but like I said before Ayrton Senna had nothing to do with this talk. I think you just picked him because I "disrespected" your personal favourite and wanted to have a go with my idol. I also said that I just listed things that has been said about Alonso, I answered a question that was asked. They're not "the very reasons" I dislike Alonso, which you could have read from the original post if you paid attention and didn't go berserk after the french notes.

And to answer you why I dislike Alonso is because of the 2007 season, crashgate, spygate, Santander deal, whining and egoism. I'm sorry for you, if you don't like me or Ayrton because of that, webbsy. At least I know that people can have different opinions about their favourite/hated drivers and I wouldn't go personally bash anyone for liking Alonso.

Now that you know the reasons why I don't like Alonso and why I commented for you bashing Senna for all the wrong reasons, maybe you can have a go on Gilles Villeneuve next?

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"Indy doesn't give you a second chance. You have to earn it."

Holywar

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Well, this thread is a whole lotta fun isn't it, going from HOF to SOS several times on the one page. I think we have - just a bit - diverted from the 2012 Brazilian GP and perhaps the thread has run it's course?