F1 2010 Round 11 - Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland

James B · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:42 am

I think Alonso was talking in code just as much as Smedley

Brooney · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:03 pm

3, really boring race and the Ferrari order was a slight plus for a conflict, but never ended with the cool drama.

Pierrot · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:16 pm

Scirocco wrote:

It's not like Ferrari are the only ones who do it. Just there move was a bit too obvious. Get over it.

And here we go again.
Ferrari are not the only one to do it...so, i guess it's enough to make it right.
Yeah, that's how people seem to think.

James B · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:18 pm

But what is "right"?

How we see team orders in F1 depends on our own interpretations of what F1 actually is

Gaara · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:23 pm

Pierrot wrote:

Scirocco wrote:

It's not like Ferrari are the only ones who do it. Just there move was a bit too obvious. Get over it.

And here we go again.
Ferrari are not the only one to do it...so, i guess it's enough to make it right.
Yeah, that's how people seem to think.

It's like BAR and the fuel tank in '05. Others had the same but they were the ones to get caught while the other teams quickly changed theirs before Spain.

And this is no different, Ferrari have been caught which is why they got the fine.

Pierrot · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:34 pm

James B wrote:

But what is "right"?

How we see team orders in F1 depends on our own interpretations of what F1 actually is

I agree with that. Well, my opinion is that a race result should be decided on track during the number of laps given to complete a race and using team orders to change a result is something that i cannot understand.
To me, every drivers have the same chances and rights of winning a race.

tommy84 · **Joined:** Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:49 pm **Posts:** 474

Again, why do people whine about that position switch

1. It was necessary as Alonso was held up by Massa and Vettel was closing in. In Turkey RBR was in the same situation and it ended in a crash...

2.They never said "Let Alonso by", only "Fernando is faster than you, can you confirm you understood" - by just reading the rules word by word it was ok

3. Why do people complain? On Sunday was the final stage of the Tour de France and by gentlemen's agreement nobody attacks the leader on the final stage. How boring is that???
Wouldn't it be much more entertaining to have the Tour decided with a final attack on the Champs d'Elysses?

Omega · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 6:41 pm

1. Alonso wasn't held up, Massa was going equaly fast
2. everybody knew what was ment
3. the Tour sucks, especially this one. "Ooh, someone falls. Let's all stop and wait." followed by "ooh, he didn't wait for me, he is a bad guy"

nightflight · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:02 pm

Lady Felchington wrote:

iks wrote:

But the FIA is Ferrari's puppet!

I'm fairly sure the European and British races is clear proof that that statement is complete bollocks.

+1

Williams-Fan · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:02 pm

Massa without a doubt.

A year after his accident he was finally fighting really at the front again. A superb start from P3 to P1 and a controlled race thereafter. He was constantly swapping quickest laps with Alonso so he was competitive and Alonso would have had no chance to overtake him. He deserved the win. However, I can understand the move Ferrari made. It's logical. But it doesn't change the fact that Massa was the driver of the race this time.

Wouldn't it be great when he wins in Hungary next weekend?!

Lita · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:55 pm

Scirocco wrote:

It's not like Ferrari are the only ones who do it. Just there move was a bit too obvious. Get over it.

I was not surpised by what happened and quite frankly all the teams do it just as Scirocco points out.

When teams are in certain places (like 1-2, 2-3) most have a standard decision to hold position until the end of the race. Although it may be considered strategy it is essentially a team order. And then look at the Red Bull frong wing situation.

The fact is Alonso was ahead of Massa in the championship, just like Vettel was ahead of Webber. The most important thing in F1 is the WCC, the WDC is secondary. Logically, although a bit unfair, it makes sense to give the advantage to the driver with the best chance of winning the WDC.

As it was stated, we wouldn't care if it was the last race

Lita · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:59 pm

Massa doesn't deserve the vote. I don't believe there was anyone who really stood out.

Lita · PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:03 pm

I'm being generous with a 4 me thinks.

I even fell asleep during the race :lol:

Woke up just as a Ferrari crossed the finish line. I thought it was Massa until Alonso's name popped up on screen. "Oh he passed him", so I thought

De Cesaris fan · PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:35 am

So many people seem to just be missing the point that it's illegal. I'm sure most of the board think the team orders rule is stupid but you either enforce it or get rid of it.

StefMeister · PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:56 pm

James Allen has posted an intresting article on his website today:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/g ... decisions/

Quote:

It seems that there was an agreement in place about the size of lead and a mechanism for showing who is faster, as a basis for Ferrari to make a decision. This may be a legacy of incidents earlier in the season, such as Australia, where Alonso was held up by Massa and the team took no action.

Judging from the messages to Massa from his engineer Rob Smedley, it seems that the notion of a three second lead was important, Smedley pointed out to Massa that he had three seconds in hand over his team mate at one point and described that as important.

But Alonso soon ate into that lead, getting it down to below a second, which was his way of proving that he was faster. Faced with Massa’s inability to match the pace and having lost the three second lead, the team had the evidence it needed to tell Massa that Alonso was faster than him, which was clearly the agreed etiquette.

I’ve been researching this a bit over the last few days and this kind of arrangement is quite common within teams. There has to be some way for teams to assess which driver is faster on the day and if the driver who is following can prove that he can close up a gap then it shows that he is faster.

This tipped the balance in Alonso’s favour in Germany.

aerogi · PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:00 pm

StefMeister wrote:

James Allen has posted an intresting article on his website today:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/g ... decisions/

Quote:

It seems that there was an agreement in place about the size of lead and a mechanism for showing who is faster, as a basis for Ferrari to make a decision. This may be a legacy of incidents earlier in the season, such as Australia, where Alonso was held up by Massa and the team took no action.

Judging from the messages to Massa from his engineer Rob Smedley, it seems that the notion of a three second lead was important, Smedley pointed out to Massa that he had three seconds in hand over his team mate at one point and described that as important.

But Alonso soon ate into that lead, getting it down to below a second, which was his way of proving that he was faster. Faced with Massa’s inability to match the pace and having lost the three second lead, the team had the evidence it needed to tell Massa that Alonso was faster than him, which was clearly the agreed etiquette.

I’ve been researching this a bit over the last few days and this kind of arrangement is quite common within teams. There has to be some way for teams to assess which driver is faster on the day and if the driver who is following can prove that he can close up a gap then it shows that he is faster.

This tipped the balance in Alonso’s favour in Germany.

that could explain why Alonso at one point was fighting with Massa for position, suddenly was 3 seconds behind Massa, and a few laps later he was again within one second. Probably Alonso wanted to make a point he was a lot faster than Massa.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:01 pm

All of that complicated procedure to prevent cars overtaking on track.

Welcome to the world of F1

codename_47 · PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:04 pm

aerogi wrote:

StefMeister wrote:

James Allen has posted an intresting article on his website today:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2010/07/g ... decisions/

Quote:

It seems that there was an agreement in place about the size of lead and a mechanism for showing who is faster, as a basis for Ferrari to make a decision. This may be a legacy of incidents earlier in the season, such as Australia, where Alonso was held up by Massa and the team took no action.

Judging from the messages to Massa from his engineer Rob Smedley, it seems that the notion of a three second lead was important, Smedley pointed out to Massa that he had three seconds in hand over his team mate at one point and described that as important.

But Alonso soon ate into that lead, getting it down to below a second, which was his way of proving that he was faster. Faced with Massa’s inability to match the pace and having lost the three second lead, the team had the evidence it needed to tell Massa that Alonso was faster than him, which was clearly the agreed etiquette.

I’ve been researching this a bit over the last few days and this kind of arrangement is quite common within teams. There has to be some way for teams to assess which driver is faster on the day and if the driver who is following can prove that he can close up a gap then it shows that he is faster.

This tipped the balance in Alonso’s favour in Germany.

that could explain why Alonso at one point was fighting with Massa for position, suddenly was 3 seconds behind Massa, and a few laps later he was again within one second. Probably Alonso wanted to make a point he was a lot faster than Massa.

Another great way to make that point would've been to overtake him.

I don't think Fernando, for all his faults, is as incompetent at overtaking as Vettel was and he nearly had it done a couple of times anyway so instead of throwing a tantrum on the radio, if he'd used that energy in a battle on the radio I'd actually be celebrating him as the man of the race who brought overtaking to a dull parade rather than thinking him a whiny, egotistical bastard.

ellis · PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:22 am

Quote:

I’ve been researching this a bit over the last few days and this kind of arrangement is quite common within teams.

I'd like to know what teams. We've seen McLaren and RBR let the drivers race.

pdukers · PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:55 am

aerogi wrote:

that could explain why Alonso at one point was fighting with Massa for position, suddenly was 3 seconds behind Massa, and a few laps later he was again within one second. Probably Alonso wanted to make a point he was a lot faster than Massa.

Perhaps Alonso was fuel saving at first and then Massa. That could explain the the growing and shrinking of the gap.

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F1 2010 Round 11 - Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland

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