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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 12:14 am 
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Gaara wrote:
codename_47 wrote:
That strategy is the only reason George ever used to beat him last year tbf, so it felt apt Lewis got one back over him, at least.

That's what the VSC does, takes racing off the track and gifts the driver who doesn't pit track position and fresher tyres, meaning they won't be overtaken

I've always hated it for that reason, but it's a valid strategic element of the VSC ever since it began, it's not like it's suddenly an issue now it happened to Lewis :roll:

Aside from that, not the greatest race, desperately needed that SC didn't it? Even though they could've probably handled that with a VSC, the director decided to give us some fun...

Also great to have a break from Sky for one weekend a year.... :whistling:


To be fair, it's the same when they used to close the pits when the SC came out. If you didn't pit you'd end up behind all those who did. *cough*Singapore '08*cough*

Now with the delta times you'd still get the same effect as with VSC, but I guess not as massive a disadvantage but still one nonetheless.

It wasn't so much strategy as it was Hamilton did more of the experimenting to try and make the car better whereas Russell didn't since he was more concentrating on settling into the team.


From an entertainent point of view, diving into the pits during a SC brings the perfect storm: car voluntarily chooses to go behind slower rivals for the benefit of faster tyres, then has to pass them ON TRACK after it comes in
VSC=no passing on track because the car that pits gets a shorter pit time compared to those left out on track, comes out ahead AND on fresher tyres
It's anti-entertainment.

The 2008 closing of the pit lane during SC (which they blatently copied from Indycar tbh) period was probably a high point of the caution rules tbh.
We've seen just today in IMSA the danger of cars trying to maintain speed to get round to the pits without losing places and strategy time.
Closing the pits takes that element out of it, ensures the incident can be cleaned up, field packed up safely, THEN the pits can be opened without anyone rushing through the danger area
It was actually one of the only elements aside from random rain that caused that season to be good as it was in the high downforce, refuelling, grooved tyre era.
Hockenheim 08 was a good example of this where Glock's crash turned a parade into a race where Hamilton and a few others were caught out, had to pit and then fight through the field

They got rid of that way too soon, way before they came up with all this delta time stuff....

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 2:25 am 
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Have we ever seen a B-spec car make as huge of a mid-season jump as McLaren has? Piastri was barely getting out of Q1 in the previous spec, and luck aside has a comfortable 3rd wrapped up.

Late charge for 2nd in the constructors?

Also Perez has got to go. Five Q3's missed in a row, in a car that's one of the best in a generation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 4:59 am 
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Perez's confidence seems shattered since that qualifying in Monaco and he doesn't seem to have mentally recovered from that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:34 am 
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Does Perez need to go? What does his replacement driver need to achieve?
Despite his not so good results, Red Bull are still 1 and 2 in the drivers championship, and miles ahead in the constructors championship. And Perez isn´t going to challenge the number 1 driver Verstappen. Things cannot be better for Red Bull.
Replace Perez and you get a driver that needs to adapt to the car (with all risks) and you lose 2nd place in the drivers championship.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:00 am 
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Omega wrote:
Does Perez need to go? What does his replacement driver need to achieve?


Get the dominant car into Q3 once in a while?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:04 am 
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It's not like his predecessors were doing any better (and they've gone on to be highly rated in subsequent rides). At some point you need to stop blaming the driver. Perez is at least good for the occasional win, and brings the car home in the points most times. Really the only thing Sergio can do to fuck up his position is start beef with Max - he's in a Kimi role, he needs to adopt the Kimi mindset.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:06 am 
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Omega wrote:
Does Perez need to go? What does his replacement driver need to achieve?
Despite his not so good results, Red Bull are still 1 and 2 in the drivers championship, and miles ahead in the constructors championship. And Perez isn´t going to challenge the number 1 driver Verstappen. Things cannot be better for Red Bull.
Replace Perez and you get a driver that needs to adapt to the car (with all risks) and you lose 2nd place in the drivers championship.
I think this season it's OK because there isn't one team always coming second, but in most seasons Perez's performance would be putting the constructors championship at risk.

Ideally Red Bull would use the rest of the season to sort out Perez's confidence but on past form he'll just be another 2nd driver who lost his performance at Red Bull

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:30 am 
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Perez needs to pick himself up in the next few races or he won´t have a seat next year, but I see no benefits in replacing him this year.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:26 am 
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Even Marko has said they don't have anyone to replace him right now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:18 am 
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peterohanrahanrahan wrote:
Have we ever seen a B-spec car make as huge of a mid-season jump as McLaren has? Piastri was barely getting out of Q1 in the previous spec, and luck aside has a comfortable 3rd wrapped up.

Late charge for 2nd in the constructors?


Maybe Mclaren in 2004?

I remember them being nowhere in Melbourne and won a race by the end of the European season

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:27 am 
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Ferrari have the habit of doing it the other way round


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:29 am 
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And serious: Jordan 1998. Did not score a single point in the first half, went on to win a race and finish 4th in constructors.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:37 am 
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Omega wrote:
Ferrari have the habit of doing it the other way round


What about in 2006 - Renault had them covered until Indianapolis, then Ferrari had easily the best car in the second half. This was of course helped by the mass damper and the worst penalty in F1 history at Monza.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 3:28 pm 
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Omega wrote:
But if that helped your result, acknowledge it. Don´t just say you/ the fans/the team was amazing, say you got lucky with the pitstops.
After the pitstop, you still need to keep it on the track ofcourse and don´t do a Sainz, losing 4 places in 3 corners or something.


saying that you got lucky and is better than the opposition is not on Mercedes agenda, back when they were dominating they never declared themselves the main force, just tip toeing. I guess they were afraid to be bashed, but if you're working hard and doing your best there's no problem

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:57 pm 
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As long as Red Bull is miles ahead of anyone else there is no need to replace Perez. He's not costing them the constructors title even with him missing Q3 lately. The revolving door of the #2 team also helps Red Bull since Aston's early magic has subsided, Mercedes & Ferrari are still back & forth and now McLaren has suddenly woken up and might be a serious threat during the summer months.

I suppose the best future bet is Liam Lawson if he manages to avoid being Hartley 2.0. It all depends if they want him to claim that Super Formula title and won't call him back mid-season to replace de Vries. And even if they do, AlphaTauri looks ho-hum enough he might not be able to "star" in the last few rounds to suddenly raise the noise he's ready to step into the Red Bull seat.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2023 11:11 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
Omega wrote:
But if that helped your result, acknowledge it. Don´t just say you/ the fans/the team was amazing, say you got lucky with the pitstops.
After the pitstop, you still need to keep it on the track ofcourse and don´t do a Sainz, losing 4 places in 3 corners or something.


saying that you got lucky and is better than the opposition is not on Mercedes agenda, back when they were dominating they never declared themselves the main force, just tip toeing. I guess they were afraid to be bashed, but if you're working hard and doing your best there's no problem


If Lewis had said he was blessed to get 3rd place (which is his form of luck, I guess) you'd also have had a problem with that

It's not what is said that is the problem, it's who is saying it,,,,

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:46 am 
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Would another driver be worse off than Perez? Yes, probably. Would another driver have more upside? Guess it depends on the driver. Perez is pretty much in the Webber/Vettel mould. If they want the two best drivers that they can get, then Perez has to go. If they want the two best drivers for the team, then Perez stays. It is as simple as that really.

The problem with Perez is that he should be finishing second pretty much every race, considering Max has more points alone than the second team in the constructors championship, and yet Perez is struggling to stay second in the championship. It is just not good optics more than anything. It basically means that Red Bull can't trust Perez to deliver when the inevitable happens and Max has a problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:02 am 
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Gasly and Albon failed way harder than Perez in that seat. Are they more shit than him, or is the 2nd team better now and if they had another crack they'd be performing better than Checo?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:34 am 
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IMO the problem with Gasly and Albon in that second RBR seat was that they set out trying to match Verstappen in qualifying and the races, which was a completely unrealistic goal. Not sure what expectations or support they had behind the scenes from management but it seemed like they were aiming too high and the constant failure (relatively speaking) in doing so completely shot their confidence and performance suffered even further. As mentioned above, clearly they've gone on to be successful in their new teams.

Whereas, with Perez he should be mature/experienced enough to realize that an acceptable target in that second seat is to be a couple tenths off Verstappen and once he does, I'm sure the results will come more consistently.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2023 3:23 pm 
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off to the stats of this race, we have new records

.43rd victory for Max Verstappen

.6th consecutive victory for Max Verstappen (ranked 6th all time)

.11th consecutive win for Red Bull
-equals McLaren for all time record set in 1988

.10th straight victory for Honda (needs one more to equal their personal best)

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