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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:09 am 
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peterohanrahanrahan wrote:
Nah let them race.

Shouldn't jump to penalties every time that happens, we want more Fuji 2007 style racing than 5-second penalties thrown out like candy. Unless it causes an incident (contact).


You in your previous guise were one of the people who were giving me shit for saying that the Norris and Perez Austria incident was Norris's fault, and now this even more blatant incident is OK?

Yes, I agree, let them race, which is why I thought that Austria incident was total horseshit.....but so and so was AHEAD on apex you all said......and then this? ......Move along people.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:51 am 
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webbsy wrote:
peterohanrahanrahan wrote:
Nah let them race.

Shouldn't jump to penalties every time that happens, we want more Fuji 2007 style racing than 5-second penalties thrown out like candy. Unless it causes an incident (contact).


You in your previous guise were one of the people who were giving me shit for saying that the Norris and Perez Austria incident was Norris's fault, and now this even more blatant incident is OK?

Yes, I agree, let them race, which is why I thought that Austria incident was total horseshit.....but so and so was AHEAD on apex you all said......and then this? ......Move along people.


I don't even remember having an opinion on that incident, as a matter of fact, I barely remember it. I vaguely remember Perez ran drivers into gravel 2-3 times one race

That previous version of me was an idiot anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:04 am 
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cookie wrote:
Yes, let them race. Hard fair racing was this, didn't end in a crash like Silverstone.

This always bugs me. Why should we judge the move by the end result? Since the racing situation is identical, whether there's a collision or not shouldn't change our view on the move preceding it. Nevertheless we react in two way. 1. Crash: OMG! That was illegal! 2. No Crash: Nice! Wonderful racing!

It's so easy for them to crash (or not crash): a fraction of second slower reaction time by either of them, minuscule miscalculation about one's own or other driver's placement, small but hardly detectable lock-up, tiny lapse in spatial awareness, or just unlucky contact by the tires. They and all other factors (that weren't listed) can decide whether or not the cars collide. And if, and only if that happens, then some of us would require penalties. But because neither of them wanted to crash (at least yesterday), it would have been only bad luck had that happened.

My personal opinion is that all collisions should be considered racing incidents. Only Schumi's move at Jerez and some of Maldonado's idiotic moves would have been clearly against good sportsmanship regardless if there had been a crash.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:47 am 
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My idea of a racing incident is when both drivers were trying their hardest to race clean and fair, but one of hem makes a mistake or misjudgment.

Being inside is always tricky. If you're trying your best to race fairly and make the corner (with or without leaving an entire space, it's a gray area) but you misjudge and hit/push the other driver, it's a racing incident. A good example of this is Hulkenberg vs. Hamilton at Interlagos 2011.

But if you either:
- Enter with appropriate speed, but release the steering to close the gap outside despite having the grip to take a tighter line (Hamilton vs Rosberg COTA start 2015)
- Enter with far more speed then appropriate for the corner, deliberately planning your entry leaving no possible outcome but washing out not only into the other driver's line, but outside the track boundaries (Alonso at COTA this year)

Then it crosses my personal line of you being disrespectful on track, and not anymore a racing incident. Two ways to solve it: modern way is stewards get involved. Old way is I make a mental note, and next time I'm next to you in particular, you're going off-roading or we both crash.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:10 am 
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Gaara wrote:
Was Hamilton always this popular in Brazil?


Not that popular, but surely yesterday was a turning point. Easy to say he was the crowd's favorite as he is the most successful on the field and has such an admiration for Senna. Add to this mix the fact Brazil is in the longest drought of F1 wins, with a drought of drivers on the field within it, and we have the perfect recipe for people going crazy with his win and the flag thing.

I just saw on Instagram WTF1 selling shirts with an image of Hamilton and the word "Patrão", which literally means "boss" in Portuguese, which surely came from how the Brazilian announcer refers to him. I think this shows how crazy the bond between Lewis and Brazil became. I also think that post-race shenanigans were cringe as hell, but they are very remarkable as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:30 am 
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Or Hamilton has a very good PR assistent, that said "hey Lewis, do that Senna thing and the crowd will love you!".


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 2:56 pm 
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Lewis Hamilton back in the 1990s, after his then-PR assistant told him that idolising Ayrton Senna and using his helmet colors would win him the crowd.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:34 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 5:56 pm 
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well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:52 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
Lewis Hamilton back in the 1990s, after his then-PR assistant told him that idolising Ayrton Senna and using his helmet colors would win him the crowd.

Image

Splendid! Great!
How many years did he race in F1 with these colours again?
He has started 14 races in Brazil. How many times before has he frantically waved that Brazilian flag?
But also: how many social media posts did he post before this race to point out that he really looooves Senna? This has well thought media stunt written all over it. It worked out perfectly for him, I can´t remember a crowd cheering this hard for him anywhere but on Silverstone.

Not saying he´s the only one, I doubt most "famous" people do their own social media work, they have an entire PR team to do that job for them.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 7:48 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even


Toto can go choke on a dick.

I wouldnt turn my back on Horner but Toto would stab my from the front and cry how I wronged him by making him a murderer :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:29 pm 
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Omega wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
Lewis Hamilton back in the 1990s, after his then-PR assistant told him that idolising Ayrton Senna and using his helmet colors would win him the crowd.

Image

Splendid! Great!
How many years did he race in F1 with these colours again?
He has started 14 races in Brazil. How many times before has he frantically waved that Brazilian flag?
But also: how many social media posts did he post before this race to point out that he really looooves Senna? This has well thought media stunt written all over it. It worked out perfectly for him, I can´t remember a crowd cheering this hard for him anywhere but on Silverstone.

Not saying he´s the only one, I doubt most "famous" people do their own social media work, they have an entire PR team to do that job for them.


Here are all special helmets Lewis used in Brazil GPs prior to this year
Image

The same guy who dropped a bottle when heard the news he was gifted a race worn helmet from Senna's family and looked like a child holding it.

I know Lewis can sound insincere sometimes, hence the meme of him saying people from any country are the best fans in the world. But he's been vocal about his admiration for Senna and his love for Brazil for quite a long time. No way what we saw on Sunday was just something his PR team told him to do.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:38 pm 
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micha wrote:
LucasWheldon wrote:
well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even


Toto can go choke on a dick.

I wouldnt turn my back on Horner but Toto would stab my from the front and cry how I wronged him by making him a murderer :roll:


he will rent the track and use an AMG GT and an Aston Martin to prove his point

plus, once the checkered flag drops, the race is over and complaints will only put an asterisk in your achievement

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2021 10:48 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even

Back then, Hamilton was considered responsible for that collision and handed a 10-second time penalty during the race. It might have been a grid penalty if he had abandoned too (just like they did for Max after Monza).

Remember that Silverstone penalty was for an optimistic move where he missed the apex by half a car width, and arguably could've made the corner or at least made every attempt to.

Here, we have Verstappen rolling off the brakes and blata tly going completely off the track to keep advantage, and it wasn't even investigated. Regardless of what you think of Toto Wolff's smug face, Mercedes is correct in trying to get him penalised for that, on similar grounds, even after the race in light of new evidence (wouldn't be the first or last time in F1).

Of course, there were no consequences here, but what did the FIA say about those again?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:29 am 
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That should have been at least a 5 sec penalty, but Masi and the stewards are totally out of their depth

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:02 pm 
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I still believe they should not go to a penalty, they fucking won anyway. What a bunch of bad winners

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:08 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
I still believe they should not go to a penalty, they fucking won anyway. What a bunch of bad winners


A 5-second penalty elevates Bottas to second, so has a big impact on the constructor's championship, which is for Mercedes the team and not either driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2021 5:10 pm 
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EAS wrote:
Omega wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
Lewis Hamilton back in the 1990s, after his then-PR assistant told him that idolising Ayrton Senna and using his helmet colors would win him the crowd.

Image

Splendid! Great!
How many years did he race in F1 with these colours again?
He has started 14 races in Brazil. How many times before has he frantically waved that Brazilian flag?
But also: how many social media posts did he post before this race to point out that he really looooves Senna? This has well thought media stunt written all over it. It worked out perfectly for him, I can´t remember a crowd cheering this hard for him anywhere but on Silverstone.

Not saying he´s the only one, I doubt most "famous" people do their own social media work, they have an entire PR team to do that job for them.


Here are all special helmets Lewis used in Brazil GPs prior to this year
Image

The same guy who dropped a bottle when heard the news he was gifted a race worn helmet from Senna's family and looked like a child holding it.

I know Lewis can sound insincere sometimes, hence the meme of him saying people from any country are the best fans in the world. But he's been vocal about his admiration for Senna and his love for Brazil for quite a long time. No way what we saw on Sunday was just something his PR team told him to do.


In addition to this, suggesting that it was a PR stunt doesn't reflect well on the thousands of people who paid to be there and cheer for him. It's not like they would have all found a press release under their seats on Friday.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:52 pm 
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micha wrote:
LucasWheldon wrote:
well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even


Toto can go choke on a dick.

I wouldnt turn my back on Horner but Toto would stab my from the front and cry how I wronged him by making him a murderer :roll:


Toto's a brilliant politician. Surely he has a career in politics once he's done with motorsport, otherwise those skills will definitely go to waste.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:00 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
LucasWheldon wrote:
well so they must fairly abdicate of the 25 points Lewis earned at Silverstone to make it even

Back then, Hamilton was considered responsible for that collision and handed a 10-second time penalty during the race. It might have been a grid penalty if he had abandoned too (just like they did for Max after Monza).

Remember that Silverstone penalty was for an optimistic move where he missed the apex by half a car width, and arguably could've made the corner or at least made every attempt to.

Here, we have Verstappen rolling off the brakes and blata tly going completely off the track to keep advantage, and it wasn't even investigated. Regardless of what you think of Toto Wolff's smug face, Mercedes is correct in trying to get him penalised for that, on similar grounds, even after the race in light of new evidence (wouldn't be the first or last time in F1).

Of course, there were no consequences here, but what did the FIA say about those again?


When trying to figure out if a penalty should've been assessed to Verstappen, I think we first need to start with the exact wording of the regulation that he violated.

Going completely off track to keep advantage? Well Red Bull can argue that he was trying to defend his position, ended up braking too late and was unable to keep it on the track. I'm not sure they can penalize a driver for trying to defend his position, albeit a little too robustly here.
Penalize him causing a collision? I guess if there had been contact it would've been a slam dunk penalty. But thanks to Hamilton there was no contact.
Forcing a rival off track? That seems to be the most likely violation, but I feel like Red Bull will find some data to say he was just defending his position and ran out of road.

Maybe there's something else in the rule book, but I think given the events of the incident itself, they'll be hard pressed to pin something on Verstappen.


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