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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:43 pm 
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aerogi wrote:
American Dragon wrote:
What a picture.

Spoiler:
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it seems since the introduction of the halo, it has been quite a number of times very important.

I just wonder then how come we didn't (almost) didn't had any incidents before that? I remember a few occasions (Alonso at Spa for example) where a halo could have been very useful too, but for some reason never ended in drama.

Could it have saved Bianchi for example? or the woman that had a freak accident but can't remember her name.


Halo would've definitely been useful when Liuzzi drove into Michael in Abu Dhabi 2010 which was a bit too close for comfort.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:45 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
I'd say Bianchi could had been saved because the tractor possibly would even more up and not directly into him


It all depends on the forces that would have still gone through him. It doesn't always need to be a direct blow to the head and it was into a large, heavy stationary object.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 7:54 pm 
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when I saw the footage, it seemed that Sutil's car acted like a counterweight that prevented that crash to be an instant death situation

he could had injuries for sure as it was a massive impact agains a heavy object, but not like the way it was

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:07 pm 
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Asinine penalty. Can Red Bull appeal this stupidity or no?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:12 pm 
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aerogi wrote:
American Dragon wrote:
What a picture.

Spoiler:
Image


it seems since the introduction of the halo, it has been quite a number of times very important.

I just wonder then how come we didn't (almost) didn't had any incidents before that? I remember a few occasions (Alonso at Spa for example) where a halo could have been very useful too, but for some reason never ended in drama.

Could it have saved Bianchi for example? or the woman that had a freak accident but can't remember her name.


Not sure what exactly happened with Bianchi, but if the major factor was a sudden and huge desacceleration, halo wouldn't be helpful.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:17 pm 
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Karan wrote:
aerogi wrote:
American Dragon wrote:
What a picture.

Spoiler:
Image


it seems since the introduction of the halo, it has been quite a number of times very important.

I just wonder then how come we didn't (almost) didn't had any incidents before that? I remember a few occasions (Alonso at Spa for example) where a halo could have been very useful too, but for some reason never ended in drama.

Could it have saved Bianchi for example? or the woman that had a freak accident but can't remember her name.


Halo would've definitely been useful when Liuzzi drove into Michael in Abu Dhabi 2010 which was a bit too close for comfort.


I'm not sure about DC on Wurz in Melbourne 2007 because he came from the side, might have help but maybe not.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:21 pm 
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Come on FIA, just DQ Max from the championship. You know you want to!


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:32 pm 
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It's too bad this incident and the stupid decision by the stewards is overshadowing the bigger news that a driver who was supposedly "completely shot" and in a terrible headspace just a few weeks ago, has remarkably managed to win a race.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:52 pm 
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SFM wrote:
I'm not sure about DC on Wurz in Melbourne 2007 because he came from the side, might have help but maybe not.


Also Rosberg-Karthikeyan accident at Yas Marina 2012 might be one where if it happened today, people would praise halo.
Image

I'm not saying halo hasn't played any part in saving lives recently (Grosjean for sure), but it's impossible to draw conclusions 'because halo -> x is alive" after every flip or contact with a rollbar.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 9:50 pm 
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aerogi wrote:
American Dragon wrote:
What a picture.

Spoiler:
Image


it seems since the introduction of the halo, it has been quite a number of times very important.

I just wonder then how come we didn't (almost) didn't had any incidents before that? I remember a few occasions (Alonso at Spa for example) where a halo could have been very useful too, but for some reason never ended in drama.

Could it have saved Bianchi for example? or the woman that had a freak accident but can't remember her name.

Bianchi was addressed specifically in the FIA presentation about the HALO study cases, and it was stated that it would not have resisted (whether it would have helped is probably another speculation).

Since the Halo was introduced, I don't think the frequency of such crashes increased, it just became a lot easier to notice the impacts on it, and being bulky, it catches a lot of impacts that would otherwise have been just dismissed as a near miss (Kartikeyan 2012, Wurz/Coulthard 2006, Kimi at Monza 2007, Kimi/Button at Austria, Alesi/Kimi Suzuka 2001, Burti 2001 at Spa). All of these would've impacted the Halo in a very obvious way and it would've been praised for avoiding injury, but in reality we wouldn't know how close had the halo been there.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:06 pm 
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Good race.

Hilarious penalty, Lewis WDC easily.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:08 pm 
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Perez and AT drivers will be highly requested to do to Hamilton in Sochi what Schlesser did with Senna at Monza

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:57 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
aerogi wrote:
American Dragon wrote:
What a picture.

Spoiler:
Image


it seems since the introduction of the halo, it has been quite a number of times very important.

I just wonder then how come we didn't (almost) didn't had any incidents before that? I remember a few occasions (Alonso at Spa for example) where a halo could have been very useful too, but for some reason never ended in drama.

Could it have saved Bianchi for example? or the woman that had a freak accident but can't remember her name.

Bianchi was addressed specifically in the FIA presentation about the HALO study cases, and it was stated that it would not have resisted (whether it would have helped is probably another speculation).

Since the Halo was introduced, I don't think the frequency of such crashes increased, it just became a lot easier to notice the impacts on it, and being bulky, it catches a lot of impacts that would otherwise have been just dismissed as a near miss (Kartikeyan 2012, Wurz/Coulthard 2006, Kimi at Monza 2007, Kimi/Button at Austria, Alesi/Kimi Suzuka 2001, Burti 2001 at Spa). All of these would've impacted the Halo in a very obvious way and it would've been praised for avoiding injury, but in reality we wouldn't know how close had the halo been there.


I'm sure I read somewhere that Ross Brawn had stated that the halo would not be able to take the load of a full tractor being on top of a car and would not have helped in the Bianci crash, and indeed might well have folded into the cockpit with all that weight on top of it.
Halo was already under consideration for Barrichello/Massa type accidents from Hungary 09 and other smaller wheel/car part debris accidents, not a full on crash with a tractor landing on top of it, which took Jules' crash for them to realise having Tractors and race drivers in the same space under racing conditions was a really fucking stupid idea.

Back to the crash, and our own (or our ex-own, I dunno) PHortonF1 wins the internet today:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:20 pm 
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Karan wrote:
webbsy wrote:
Karan wrote:
When watching it live, it looked like a racing incident to me, but after watching the multiple replays, that's definitely on Hamilton. He swerved to the left even coming out of the pits and Verstappen had to go evasive with half his car off track. And then Hamilton went extremely deep into the corner and clearly left him little to no space. All he had to do was tuck it into the apex and he would've still been ahead coming out of the corner. Verstappen stoutly stood his ground and ultimately he was entitled to that space. Unfortunately, the sausage kerb worsened the final result, but nonetheless that's on Hamilton. No doubt he was still seeing the red mist after L1.


Disagree with you on that. On that corner Max absolutely had the ability of HIM bailing out of a gap that was closing. You think that Hamilton was trying to squeeze him? Well what the hell do you think Max was doing? Max was absolutely trying to send it up the inside no matter what.

It was a racing incident in my opinion. They were both playing hard ball with eachother and paid off for neither of them.


Yes of course he had the ability to bail out, but the only option left to him at that point was going down the escape road as Hamilton left him no on-track space due to his wide line into the corner. Nonetheless, that doesn't negate the fact that Hamilton still put an aggressive squeeze on him. But as I said in my updated post, that's probably what Max should've done given the championship battle and still having the option to come back at Hamilton later in the race.

I've no idea what you mean about Max trying to send it up the inside. Think you meant to say he was trying to hang it around the outside. Although like I said, he was so far on the outside thanks to Hamilton's swerve coming out of the pits, that his left wheels were almost into the grass at corner entry.


I meant go around the outside of turn 1, which becomes the inside of turn two. Once he was somewhat close to Hamilton he was going to try and get to that apex first no matter what.

It has just added another level of spice to this whole thing. I just hope that it doesn't escalate further beyond those two. I can see a point where it takes out other drivers around them.

I also hope Dan is able to capitalize on this and get some forward momentum. More than chuffed that he has proven my criticisms of him wrong, though this kind of performance should have come 5- 6 races ago and meant that he has left a whole lot of points on the table. But I hope it is the breakthrough that he needed.

I do feel a bit for Lando though. The one weekend that Ricciardo was on top was the one that counted.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:49 pm 
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Wait, they actually gave a grid penalty for that. Brave call.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:13 am 
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Difficult one to call. My first reaction was that Max knew it would be his only chance to get past, so he made a desperate lunge.
When watching the replays, I could see that he kept his car partially alongside Lewis and was squeezed out of road, so I was leaning towards blaming Lewis. Then I thought about how Max ran Lewis off the road on the first lap in a similar way, and concluded it's a racing incident.

The difference is that Lewis is happy to take avoiding action to stay in the race (Lap 1, Imola, and Barcelona), whereas Max is happy to hold his line and risk the accident. Neither of these are right or wrong.

We need some clarity on the rules when overtaking around the outside. Some drivers get penalised for not leaving a car's width, and other times it seems to be fair to shove the outside car off the track. Now we have a penalty against the car on the outside holding its ground! Every incident and corner is different, so it's difficult to have a set rule, I guess.

Still, it's a fascinating championship battle and a great race. Really happy for Mclaren. For once, being difficult to overtake gave us a good race! On another track, the Red Bulls and Mercedes' would easily pass the Mclarens.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:42 am 
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Blame the race stewards for all these shenanigans. We desperately need permanent stewards who can apply the rules consistently. Seems each set of stewards have a different interpretation of the same rules which leads to confusion and inconsistent penalties.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:12 am 
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De Cesaris fan wrote:
We need some clarity on the rules when overtaking around the outside. Some drivers get penalised for not leaving a car's width, and other times it seems to be fair to shove the outside car off the track. Now we have a penalty against the car on the outside holding its ground! Every incident and corner is different, so it's difficult to have a set rule, I guess.

The biggest difference here is whether it's a single corner or a chicane where the outside car becomes in the inside, and therefore risks spearing into the other car if they persist.

The general expectation among drivers is that when still behind on the outside, you concede the corner and expect the gap to close. This is very general, of course angles and closing speeds and position will have exceptions. It's still a recurrent judgment call when you watch driver analyses from the likes of Palmer, Scott Mansell... etc. And stewards are drivers themselves, so they judge by that same eye.

It's also anecdotal, but in my obscure local amateur karting league, race direction says that if you aren't ahead on the outside, you've lost the corner, no need to persist and they won't penalise the inside driver. You have to earn the right to that gap outside.
Do I personally drive like that? I don't. I leave a space because I know that if I tangle my rear wheel to his front I will get the worst of it. I don't like hospitals, and I'm not paid to race, nor do I value race position over fun fair battling. But it's far from the general behaviour amongst drivers, and especially not pros!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:33 am 
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Just finished watching the race, figured the crash was just a racing incident... two guys not giving an inch, then I see Max given a penalty :? :?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:29 am 
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OK so the Verstappen penalty seems a bit harsh but I don't care. Hamilton made a remark about Max not checking on him after the accident which makes me think he's just as much of a douche as his dad. He came across as bland in his home race last weekend and I realize I don't really care how this title fight goes.


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