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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:37 am 
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There's actually a sizeable dent in the right-hand side of the Halo. Considering Lewis actually did get knocked on the head, I would say it completely fulfilled its purpose here.

EDIT: Actually no, I think that dent is there normally. I'm leaving the pic up as it's still a good pic.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:19 pm 
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gkmotorsport wrote:
EDIT: Actually no, I think that dent is there normally. I'm leaving the pic up as it's still a good pic.


yeah the lights in this pic trick our eyes to believe is dented. Is more a scratch. At least this thing FIA did it right, now they just stop to put their fingers in the race action

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:41 pm 
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Caspar wrote:
OK so the Verstappen penalty seems a bit harsh but I don't care. Hamilton made a remark about Max not checking on him after the accident which makes me think he's just as much of a douche as his dad. He came across as bland in his home race last weekend and I realize I don't really care how this title fight goes.


Lewis tried to reverse when Max was behind him so it was obvious he was okay.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:43 pm 
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We all needed some replays and a very specific photo to understand how dangerous could that have been. I don't think Max would have any clue of that at the time either. I get Hamilton's frustration with Max's behaviour, but this wasn't as obvious as the Copse incident.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:14 pm 
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Scotty wrote:

Also those people who were angry about the way Hamilton carried on after he took out Max at Silverstone, Max just walked by Lewis without even checking on him, despite nearly squashing his brain out his mouth, so they're one-all in the shithouse behaviour department.


Max did check on him - Lewis was trying to drive out of the gravel, so Max assumed he was fine. I don't think that's remotely unreasonable

webbsy wrote:
Blame the race stewards for all these shenanigans. We desperately need permanent stewards who can apply the rules consistently. Seems each set of stewards have a different interpretation of the same rules which leads to confusion and inconsistent penalties.

Yep, this is the big issue. Take running someone off the track while overtaking/defending on the inside, for one - I know we have a whole thread on it already but here are a few examples:

- Austria 2019 - Max runs Leclerc off the road - hard racin, no penalty
- Italy 2019 - Leclerc runs Lewis off the road - black and white flag, warning
- Austria 2021 - Lando runs Checo off the road, Checo runs Leclerc off the road - all penalties
- Italy 2021 - Lewis runs Max off the road - hard racin, Max gets a penalty for the ensuing collision

Either it's dangerous to run someone on the outside off the road or you basically can't overtake around the outside any more because the driver on the inside is entitled to do what he wants. Which is it?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:21 pm 
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Max has the championship lead so its absolutely within his interests to take half chances and turn in on people
If he was behind in the championship he might drive different, but for now he has no reason to change his attitude

Strap in people, this isn't done.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:14 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
Max has the championship lead so its absolutely within his interests to take half chances and turn in on people
If he was behind in the championship he might drive different, but for now he has no reason to change his attitude


Or

Lewis is so used to winning championships uncontested that he believes any corner he's battling for is his, and the other driver should "give way" as he said in his interview. If he wasn't so entitled he might drive different, but with stewarding like this he has no reason to change his attitude.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:46 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
codename_47 wrote:
Max has the championship lead so its absolutely within his interests to take half chances and turn in on people
If he was behind in the championship he might drive different, but for now he has no reason to change his attitude


Or

Lewis is so used to winning championships uncontested that he believes any corner he's battling for is his, and the other driver should "give way" as he said in his interview. If he wasn't so entitled he might drive different, but with stewarding like this he has no reason to change his attitude.


lewis probably gives space more than he aught to be honest. throughout his career he has consistently been very intentional about driving in a "sporting" manner (how very british of him, lol), but will occassionally race other drivers the way they race him. verstappen has always driven "entitled" to use your words, but i will give him credit for maturing away from that a little the past couple of years. lewis suggesting the other driver "give way" is hamilton intentionally being ironic, since it is max who almost always drives with that attitude.

max may have been nearly level with him into turn one, but he had no advantage going into turn two and should have conceded the corner. at least in silverstone lewis tried to back out


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:08 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
codename_47 wrote:
Max has the championship lead so its absolutely within his interests to take half chances and turn in on people
If he was behind in the championship he might drive different, but for now he has no reason to change his attitude


Or

Lewis is so used to winning championships uncontested that he believes any corner he's battling for is his, and the other driver should "give way" as he said in his interview. If he wasn't so entitled he might drive different, but with stewarding like this he has no reason to change his attitude.

Unfortunately, this statement is not backed by evidence from previous encounters between the two. Lewis has conceded a lot more corners than he's blindly claimed, and the other way around for Max.

They're both stubborn at the end of the day, and it's getting ridiculous. There hasn't been a single encounter this year where they battled without one of the cars going out of bounds (often cleanly thanks to run-off, but increasingly not). This scrap is fun to watch, but it's nowhere near the level expected from the two greatest drivers on the grid battling for a championship, and when people come close to injury like twice now it really is ugly.

The FIA should go full Niki Lauda on both their asses and tell them to stop being this shitty in close quarters regardless of responsibility. But they won't, because we need :8: ALL THE ANGLES :8:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:55 am 
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Playing devil's advocate level 1 TBK troll here, but:

- Perhaps Lewis leaving no room for max was his Suzuka 1989 moment, except he played Prost instead of Senna here. Lewis is usually fairly good at leaving room, but by now he knows Max will always exploit that.

- Trying to reverse your car out from underneath another when you don't know what the other driver isn't very smart. Imagine how things would have turned out had Verstappen been jolted off the car as he climbed out and broken an ankle.

Neither driver covered themselves in glory here.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:55 am 
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It's why you don't come out of the car until the track is secured and marshalls come to you, especially if you're in a gravel trap with other people whose cars are still running. This would be the same if Lewis was trying to exit the gravel with other cars stranded around, if you decide to become a pedestrian in the middle of all that, you assume the consequences IMHO because drivers are entitled to get their cars going again unless the engine is stopped. Amusingly, Prost had done the same thing in the 1989 incident, and had to move out of the way while Senna was trying to get going again.

Actually in this stacked situation maybe it's up to the driver literally on top of another person's cockpit, to stay put and wait for help to confirm status of below driver before starting to jump and move things around.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:21 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
The FIA should go full Niki Lauda on both their asses and tell them to stop being this shitty in close quarters regardless of responsibility. But they won't, because we need :8: ALL THE ANGLES :8:


that until a driver goes to hospital facing career ending injuries

and then they obviously blame the driver for causing that

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:06 pm 
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https://www.racefans.net/2021/09/14/ham ... er-alonso/

I'm with Alonso. Every single year at Monza - not just in F1 but other categories as well - there are countless situations where cars go side by side to the first chicane and make slight contact. But just because in most occasions the wheels don't interlock (impossible in saloon cars), there's no crash - and they never penalize anyone. But in open-wheel series sometimes the wheels make contact in a way that it jumps the car up or even flip it, which usually leads to a retirement. By penalizing for that is pure consequentialism.

And didn't Masi said in Silverstone that stewards won't take the outcome into account. Yet they appear to do so all the time. :slaphead:
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“One of the big parts [of stewarding] that has been a mainstay for many, many years [is] that you should not consider the consequences in an incident.

“So when you judge incidents, they judge the incident itself, the merits of the incident and not what happens after as a consequence, and that’s been something the stewards have done for many years and have been advised to do from the top down – and I’m talking team involvement and so forth.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:41 pm 
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Maybe what they mean, is that the severity of the crash and the championship position of the drivers shouldn't count. That would actually be a standard they could achieve more easily. That would be more accurate than using the blanket term "consequences", because obviously a minor contact where both drivers keep battling will naturally be judged differently to the same contact if it sends one of them or both into an immediate retirement.

Even at Copse, if there had just been a puff of smoke between their cars and they both carried on, there wouldn't have been a penalty for Hamilton, would it have? And it's mostly down to luck. And if Hamilton's car had careened to the right at Hungary turn 4 after touching Alonso, don't you think Alonso would've gotten a penalty? For placing his car in exactly the same position? Of course he would have, and deservedly so. I don't understand how the officials can be so illogical about this: some of the consequences matter (did anyone retire or get unfairly disadvantaged/advantaged), and some don't (who crashed, and in which fashion).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:14 pm 
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I'm sure Masi quote on Silverstone was about championship consequences and not the consequences of drivers going side by side in a given corner.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:21 pm 
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What the hell is the point of that sausage kerb along the inside of T2 anyway? They've already got the sleeping policemen on the inside to slow the cars somewhat if they cut through. These sausage kerb monstrosities need to be outright banned from all tracks.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:03 am 
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Without that sausage, the racing line would cut through until the next obstacle, and the white line wouldn't make sense anymore. It would get even worse on other series.

Then you'd start monitoring track limits like at the Parabolica or at Bahrain turn 4. I thought we didn't like that? But now that people have to live through the immediate consequences of not driving on the goddamn track, suddenly sausages are not good? Nah mate the sausage was there for years, it's slow speed, it was identified by drivers in their track walk...it's the only two idiots that drove into it for the whole weekend that are the problem.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:30 am 
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Let's not pretend there aren't many non-sausage curb options that also enforce track limits, like gravel, grass, astroturf, even a temporary barrier. None of these would have resulted in skid marks on Lewis's head.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:07 am 
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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... jmV1S.html

Great 360 on board of both Hamilton and Verstappen. Verstappens wheel doesn't just land on Hamilton's head. It rolls along it! And just to add more to my take how Max should have bailed out, just look at the angle he was driving into the apex. He would have forced Hamilton to come to a complete stop if he didn't go over the curb and made the corner.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:58 am 
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webbsy wrote:
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-hamilton-and-verstappens-dramatic-monza-crash-in-360-degrees.2VKtHpsxsXUfN1VE7jmV1S.html

Great 360 on board of both Hamilton and Verstappen. Verstappens wheel doesn't just land on Hamilton's head. It rolls along it! And just to add more to my take how Max should have bailed out, just look at the angle he was driving into the apex. He would have forced Hamilton to come to a complete stop if he didn't go over the curb and made the corner.



rumor is that red bull and verstappen have been rather quiet about the ruling because apparently the data that they have shows max had too much speed to even make the corner


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