TBK-Light.com :: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit

webbsy wrote:

What a load of absolute hogswash. Perez was ALWAYS running out of road and had ample time to get out of throttle, but he kept his foot in it trying to force Norris off his line, which you yourself have just said. So yes by trying to hang on on the outside line Perez WAS trying to force Norris into a tighter line compromising his corner.

We must have watched completely different onboards, because Perez was going wide on that corner regardless. There was only ever one driver that was off the racing line trying to force another off it. And that was Perez.

You're contradicting yourself so many times in this post that I'm having a hard time believing my eyes.

Do you even race, mate? Your car occupies a physical space. You're using "running off" and "forcing" way too liberally here. The mere act of overtaking means you're "forcing" the other driver to account for your car. That's how you fight for position in the first place, the whole art is how you compromise other people's lines and how you get them to position or hinder their line/momentum. Only a few overtakes can be completed without ever compromising the other car's line, and those aren't the exciting battles we (or the drivers) like. The key difference, is are you compromising him while still giving space and respect and fairness, or just disregarding him.

Philty and Westracing are 200% right, this is a race, not a timed lap. It's about give and take (cf. Russel and Alonso). Driving around oblivious to other cars' placement on track because of some ill-conceived general idea (like "I'm inside, it's up to him to back off") is just mediocre racecraft, and that's what the stewards have penalised last week. Whether you race IRL or in simracing, you probably know people who drive like that, they're just a recipe for incidents and they get zero respect from the rest of the field.

Author:	Coldtyre [ Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
webbsy wrote: What a load of absolute hogswash. Perez was ALWAYS running out of road and had ample time to get out of throttle, but he kept his foot in it trying to force Norris off his line, which you yourself have just said. So yes by trying to hang on on the outside line Perez WAS trying to force Norris into a tighter line compromising his corner. We must have watched completely different onboards, because Perez was going wide on that corner regardless. There was only ever one driver that was off the racing line trying to force another off it. And that was Perez. You're contradicting yourself so many times in this post that I'm having a hard time believing my eyes. Do you even race, mate? Your car occupies a physical space. You're using "running off" and "forcing" way too liberally here. The mere act of overtaking means you're "forcing" the other driver to account for your car. That's how you fight for position in the first place, the whole art is how you compromise other people's lines and how you get them to position or hinder their line/momentum. Only a few overtakes can be completed without ever compromising the other car's line, and those aren't the exciting battles we (or the drivers) like. The key difference, is are you compromising him while still giving space and respect and fairness, or just disregarding him. Philty and Westracing are 200% right, this is a race, not a timed lap. It's about give and take (cf. Russel and Alonso). Driving around oblivious to other cars' placement on track because of some ill-conceived general idea (like "I'm inside, it's up to him to back off") is just mediocre racecraft, and that's what the stewards have penalised last week. Whether you race IRL or in simracing, you probably know people who drive like that, they're just a recipe for incidents and they get zero respect from the rest of the field.

Author:	pimmy [ Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Coldtyre wrote: webbsy wrote: What a load of absolute hogswash. Perez was ALWAYS running out of road and had ample time to get out of throttle, but he kept his foot in it trying to force Norris off his line, which you yourself have just said. So yes by trying to hang on on the outside line Perez WAS trying to force Norris into a tighter line compromising his corner. We must have watched completely different onboards, because Perez was going wide on that corner regardless. There was only ever one driver that was off the racing line trying to force another off it. And that was Perez. You're contradicting yourself so many times in this post that I'm having a hard time believing my eyes. Do you even race, mate? Your car occupies a physical space. You're using "running off" and "forcing" way too liberally here. The mere act of overtaking means you're "forcing" the other driver to account for your car. That's how you fight for position in the first place, the whole art is how you compromise other people's lines and how you get them to position or hinder their line/momentum. Only a few overtakes can be completed without ever compromising the other car's line, and those aren't the exciting battles we (or the drivers) like. The key difference, is are you compromising him while still giving space and respect and fairness, or just disregarding him. Philty and Westracing are 200% right, this is a race, not a timed lap. It's about give and take (cf. Russel and Alonso). Driving around oblivious to other cars' placement on track because of some ill-conceived general idea (like "I'm inside, it's up to him to back off") is just mediocre racecraft, and that's what the stewards have penalised last week. Whether you race IRL or in simracing, you probably know people who drive like that, they're just a recipe for incidents and they get zero respect from the rest of the field. Exactly, you're (usually) always going to push someone off the line when overtaking, whether you're on the inside or outside. Forcing someone off the track, regardless of how much of an overlap there is, is just shit driving.

Author:	LucasWheldon [ Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
at least drivers are improving Mario Andretti claimed that once he was going to pass Hunt on the outside and Hunt shoved him off and later said "here you're not allowed to pass on the outside" if that happened today Hunt would have 5 penalty points

Author:	Karan [ Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Beezle wrote: My 2 cents: If the outside car is slightly behind: No obligation to give room. If the outside car is clearly alongside or even in front then give room. Pretty much this. If the car on the outside is behind on corner entry or late dive bombing the outside, the inside car should be fully entitled to take his racing line without any reprimand. But if it's an even battle going into the corner, then based on the current wording of the rulebook, the car on the inside should be expected to take a tighter line on corner exit, rather than just the normal racing line (thereby pinching the outside car out of space). I say current wording because in this past this wouldn't have been the expectation.

Author:	iks [ Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
I voted yes. Drivers expect too much these days. Time to grow a pair.

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Author:	Schumifan [ Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Really interesting reading everyone's thoughts. Got to admit I'm surprised at how skewed the results are in favour of 'no', considering how ubiquitous the 'yes' attitude seems to be both in the paddock and online - I honestly thought I was in the minority. One thing that keeps confusing me is that a lot of people who think 'yes' say it's because they want to see hard racing - but aren't you asking for the opposite? You're asking for the outside driver to get out of the throttle and say "after you, sir". I don't see how that constitutes hard racing. One of the best examples of good racing in F1 in recent memory is Kvyat/Albon at Hungary in 2019 (if you ignore the fact that it still ended disappointingly at turn 4). If Kvyat had shoved Albon off at the exit of turn 2 it would have been done and dusted straight away, and completely forgettable. Kvyat leaving room is what made it so great to watch, and he even still ended up coming out on top. And who knows, if he'd have left room at turn 4 too, maybe it could have gone on for a couple more corners. Surely this is the kind of stuff we want to see more of?

Author:	codename_47 [ Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Something I was thinking about last night is people's perspective when they see a good battle We were debating whether we watch for good racing overall vs individual results of drivers/teams you support in another thread, but I have the probably weird feeling when 2 cars start battling that I always sympathise with the driver behind, no matter if it's a driver I support potentially getting passed, because I just want to see a great race and a potentially fantastic overtake being cued up and a better race as a result To that end, whatever the driver in front does usually makes me mad. Late blocks, swerving in braking zones, pushing wide on exit, it's all infuriating unless the car behind Spa 2000's their way through and makes us all talk about it for a long time after Next time there's 2 cars battling, take a thought about if you're supporting the car in front or behind and which one is pissing you off more lol, it probably alters your perspective on incidents.

Author:	Dan Belcher [ Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
codename_47 wrote: I have the probably weird feeling when 2 cars start battling that I always sympathise with the driver behind, no matter if it's a driver I support potentially getting passed, because I just want to see a great race and a potentially fantastic overtake being cued up and a better race as a result It's nice to see I am not the only person who looks at racing this way! I have drivers and teams that I tend to prefer with very few strong preferences either way, but mostly I just want to be entertained by the on-track racing and I don't really worry too much about who is doing that racing.

Author:	Andrea Moda [ Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit

Author:	codename_47 [ Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Andrea Moda wrote: He did get penalised for that tbh, and everyone said it was harsh because his mirrors would be pointing back down the pit lane I say B.S, he knew he was there lol That's probably the exact reason all pit lanes have the white blend line now too

Author:	Philthy82 [ Fri Jul 16, 2021 1:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Why hasn't F1 mandated a larger minimum mirror size and range of visibility? Considering crappy mirrors have been the drivers' primary excuse for collisions for a long time now and teams will always compromise their effectiveness for aero gains, just force all teams to run big honking schoolbus mirrors.

Author:	LucasWheldon [ Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
funny that nobody already came with screens attached in the halo and cameras on the sidepods for blindspots

Author:	SBan83 [ Fri Jul 16, 2021 4:46 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Schumifan wrote: You're asking for the outside driver to get out of the throttle and say "after you, sir". I don't see how that constitutes hard racing. Because that's not what anyone's saying? What people are saying is it's not ok to nerf a driver off-track when he gets a run on your outside when you wouldn't dare do it when he's on the inside. But I know it won't change. For some reason, outside passes just haven't been kosher in F1. When Mario Andretti got a run around the outside of James Hunt at Zandvoort's first corner in the '77 Dutch GP, Hunt tried nerfing him off. But Mario didn't back off and James spun out. Then he came back to the paddock, saying "We don't pass around the outside in F1."

Author:	De Cesaris fan [ Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Hunt was proven wrong a few years later. Proper hard racing with respect on corner exit.

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Author:	codename_47 [ Fri Jul 16, 2021 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Pretty sure most people just rolled their eyes at him even when he said it tbh

Author:	mclaren2008 [ Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:08 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
this thread suddenly became more interesting, given events on corner entry

Author:	Coldtyre [ Mon Jul 19, 2021 3:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
"Hamilton's fault" (but not sarcastically this time)

Author:	Philthy82 [ Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Actually I think we need another racing etiquette topic on what the definition of a corner that is appropriate for a passing attempt is. I was once given a 30 second time penalty in an online racing league for attempting a pass in Degner at Suzuka (which resulted in collision). I felt pretty hard done by at the time but since then have come around to the idea that some corners just aren't set up for outbraking moves as there isn't really an alternate line the defending car can take if you suddenly pop alongside them. In the case of the Silverstone incident I think Max did leave a lane but the car taking that lane was never going to make the apex and keep an inside line without slowing way down and basically conceding the corner. Ergo, pretty much a single line corner. Had Lewis been far enough up that Max would have to drive through him to take his line, I'd say the onus is on Max to concede the corner or risk causing an accident. Again, the Chainbear video I posted last page explains it a lot better than I can.

Author:	mclaren2008 [ Mon Jul 19, 2021 7:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
This corner entry issue has happened before. I think of Sato and Franchitti at Indianapolis in 2012 when the Silverstone incident occured.

Author:	Schumifan [ Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Racing Etiquette - Corner Exit
Guess the F1 stewards would vote yes in this poll then. Driver on the inside can do what they like, other driver has to choose between bailing out or getting a penalty. This is so frustrating to me, it's anti-racing.