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Should drivers be allowed to force others off at corner exit?
Yes - driver on the inside has the right to use full width of track, regardless of who's alongside 18%  18%  [ 8 ]
No - a car's width should be left at all times 70%  70%  [ 31 ]
Other 11%  11%  [ 5 ]
Total votes: 44
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:56 pm 
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Not just the stewards, most active racing drivers in most series (except ovals) would vote "yes", and almost all will often act accordingly on track. Only amateurs and spectators like us have a different opinion.

Look at it from a competitor point of view as well: there's a reputation aspect to it. If you're known as the driver who gives space with one axle overlap only on his outside, you'll get mugged and walked all over. People will keep sticking their nose in on you. If you're known for dictating the line and not caring about anybody when your axle is in front (even if it leads to a contact occasionally), people will quickly learn to never half-ass a move with you - cf. all the times that Hamilton bailed out of a half-assed outside move because he knows how Max races people.

That's not what I like to see, but that's the natural equilibrium any racing field will tend to, and it's sort of self-policing. The level of official interference needed to police our poll preference up here, and change this mentality, would prove annoying IMHO.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
Not just the stewards, most active racing drivers in most series (except ovals) would vote "yes", and almost all will often act accordingly on track. Only amateurs and spectators like us have a different opinion.


Probably because we as spectators don't really want to see a nasty accident where someone could get hurt, like this nearly ended up


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:15 pm 
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Schumifan wrote:
Guess the F1 stewards would vote yes in this poll then. Driver on the inside can do what they like, other driver has to choose between bailing out or getting a penalty. This is so frustrating to me, it's anti-racing.


I don't know what the point of the tarmac runoff and those kerbs is if you can't use them to bail out of an otherwise inevitable incident
It reminds me of the first part of the infamous Spa 08 incident with Kimi and Lewis. Kimi eases Lewis out of the track on the exit of the corner, Lewis takes to the kerbs and the rest is history, but no-one ever criticised Kimi for starting that whole chain reaction by giving Lewis no room.

Max should've done what Lewis did, it wasn't a brick wall to his left, it was a couple of kerbs (which he'd already bounced over once to no avail) and that's why I think the Stewards gave him the penalty, it could've been avoided by Max at that point, Lewis couldn't do anything further.

If the situation were reversed, I don't think we'd see any different in the initial part, though I think Lewis would realise the door was closed earlier and bail out, like he was doing at Silverstone before he ran out of time with Max coming over to him

That's the problem with Max' driving atm, he knows the cars width rule and feels entitled to space he himself would not give when he is the defending driver. But that's the kind of mentality F1 drivers have, you give me room when I'm coming through, you get none when you're coming through on me.

Wouldn't have penalised for this incident though, it's the definition of a racing incident with 2 hard chargers not giving an inch. Maybe 51% Max and 49% Lewis because Max could've bailed out, but a penalty? No, but Stewards gotta Steward....

It'll happen again too, I wonder what random, Frenzten in 99 style underdog could end up having a shout at this title when Lewis and Max take each other out of a few more races and they scoop up the points they're not scoring.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:12 am 
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You always have to leave room. I hate this "I was 2 cm in front so the corner was mine!!!" bullshit. There´s a fucking car next to you, act to it! You´re racing, but for real and not in sims. Use your mirrors. React. Make it the other hard, but never impossible.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:26 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
Schumifan wrote:
Guess the F1 stewards would vote yes in this poll then. Driver on the inside can do what they like, other driver has to choose between bailing out or getting a penalty. This is so frustrating to me, it's anti-racing.


I don't know what the point of the tarmac runoff and those kerbs is if you can't use them to bail out of an otherwise inevitable incident
It reminds me of the first part of the infamous Spa 08 incident with Kimi and Lewis. Kimi eases Lewis out of the track on the exit of the corner, Lewis takes to the kerbs and the rest is history, but no-one ever criticised Kimi for starting that whole chain reaction by giving Lewis no room.

Max should've done what Lewis did, it wasn't a brick wall to his left, it was a couple of kerbs (which he'd already bounced over once to no avail) and that's why I think the Stewards gave him the penalty, it could've been avoided by Max at that point, Lewis couldn't do anything further.

If the situation were reversed, I don't think we'd see any different in the initial part, though I think Lewis would realise the door was closed earlier and bail out, like he was doing at Silverstone before he ran out of time with Max coming over to him


The problem is that a driver shouldn't be forced to bail out by the driver on the inside shoving them out. You can say "but the tarmac run-off" but that shouldn't be relevant - the stewards are meant to decide based on the incident, not the consequences. For the purposes of analysing the incident, they're supposed to ignore that there's any run-off there at all - the track is the white lines and that's it

With that in mind, Lewis' move was no different to what Lando and Checo did in Austria - you're not supposed to squeeze a driver off the road on corner exit, and this incident is exactly why. The stewards just seem to have made their decision based on some arbitrary idea that Max "wasn't far enough alongside", based on some tenuous nonsensical guidance that's been divised in a boardroom without being rooted in reality. It reminds me of the way the stewards at Monza in 2006 handled the situation where Alonso was deemed to have "blocked" Massa, even though he was way up the road - it was based on theory rather than, y'know, how motor racing actually works


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:45 am 
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One thing I've been pondering is why the criteria in F1 is the overtaking car in F1 must be fully alongside or ahead of the defending car to have a claim to a lane. In V8s (I think, couldn't find the section in the regs) the criteria is you must be up to the defending car's a-pillar, which seems totally reasonable to me and a much more realistic margin to allow for racing; asking a driver to only commit to an overtake if they know they can pull fully alongside before the apex is just stupid, considering half of that is up to how late the defending driver brakes. Obviously F1 cars don't have a-pillars but at or ahead of the front of the halo seems like a good equivalent. The other thing they can do is mandate mirrors bigger than thumbnails on the cars.

All easy and sensible fixes, so I look forward to nothing changing and us continuing to be frustrated by this until F1's overdue death.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:04 am 
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I was going to post Montoya vs Schumacher 2003 at the second chicane as an example of how to leave space, but it's not a good example. In the first corner, Montoya was clearly ahead, and in the second one, it was Schumacher. They didn't have much choice in the matter.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:51 am 
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Coldtyre wrote:
Not just the stewards, most active racing drivers in most series (except ovals) would vote "yes", and almost all will often act accordingly on track. Only amateurs and spectators like us have a different opinion.

Look at it from a competitor point of view as well: there's a reputation aspect to it. If you're known as the driver who gives space with one axle overlap only on his outside, you'll get mugged and walked all over. People will keep sticking their nose in on you. If you're known for dictating the line and not caring about anybody when your axle is in front (even if it leads to a contact occasionally), people will quickly learn to never half-ass a move with you - cf. all the times that Hamilton bailed out of a half-assed outside move because he knows how Max races people.

That's not what I like to see, but that's the natural equilibrium any racing field will tend to, and it's sort of self-policing. The level of official interference needed to police our poll preference up here, and change this mentality, would prove annoying IMHO.

It comes down to whether you have fenders or not. In fendered cars, you'll rarely see anyone not leave room when someone's got a run on you on the outside, be it oval or road. Because, fenders. You'll simply get turned around and face the field backwards. But with open wheel, it's a game of chicken as you risk losing some critical parts with the slightest contact or worse, rub wheels and end up on top of each other.

Max has always been the enforcer in this regard but this season, Lewis is giving it back. At Monza, he was already chickened off track in the second corner on the first lap. After that, he had enough and did the same to Max in the first chicane, probably knowing how it would end up. Max will think twice about not leaving room on exit when it comes to Lewis at least.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:57 pm 
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MrFerrari wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
Not just the stewards, most active racing drivers in most series (except ovals) would vote "yes", and almost all will often act accordingly on track. Only amateurs and spectators like us have a different opinion.

Look at it from a competitor point of view as well: there's a reputation aspect to it. If you're known as the driver who gives space with one axle overlap only on his outside, you'll get mugged and walked all over. People will keep sticking their nose in on you. If you're known for dictating the line and not caring about anybody when your axle is in front (even if it leads to a contact occasionally), people will quickly learn to never half-ass a move with you - cf. all the times that Hamilton bailed out of a half-assed outside move because he knows how Max races people.

That's not what I like to see, but that's the natural equilibrium any racing field will tend to, and it's sort of self-policing. The level of official interference needed to police our poll preference up here, and change this mentality, would prove annoying IMHO.

It comes down to whether you have fenders or not. In fendered cars, you'll rarely see anyone not leave room when someone's got a run on you on the outside, be it oval or road. Because, fenders. You'll simply get turned around and face the field backwards. But with open wheel, it's a game of chicken as you risk losing some critical parts with the slightest contact or worse, rub wheels and end up on top of each other.

Max has always been the enforcer in this regard but this season, Lewis is giving it back. At Monza, he was already chickened off track in the second corner on the first lap. After that, he had enough and did the same to Max in the first chicane, probably knowing how it would end up. Max will think twice about not leaving room on exit when it comes to Lewis at least.


Max will not change shit about his attutide and they'll hit again lol

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:42 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
MrFerrari wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
Not just the stewards, most active racing drivers in most series (except ovals) would vote "yes", and almost all will often act accordingly on track. Only amateurs and spectators like us have a different opinion.

Look at it from a competitor point of view as well: there's a reputation aspect to it. If you're known as the driver who gives space with one axle overlap only on his outside, you'll get mugged and walked all over. People will keep sticking their nose in on you. If you're known for dictating the line and not caring about anybody when your axle is in front (even if it leads to a contact occasionally), people will quickly learn to never half-ass a move with you - cf. all the times that Hamilton bailed out of a half-assed outside move because he knows how Max races people.

That's not what I like to see, but that's the natural equilibrium any racing field will tend to, and it's sort of self-policing. The level of official interference needed to police our poll preference up here, and change this mentality, would prove annoying IMHO.

It comes down to whether you have fenders or not. In fendered cars, you'll rarely see anyone not leave room when someone's got a run on you on the outside, be it oval or road. Because, fenders. You'll simply get turned around and face the field backwards. But with open wheel, it's a game of chicken as you risk losing some critical parts with the slightest contact or worse, rub wheels and end up on top of each other.

Max has always been the enforcer in this regard but this season, Lewis is giving it back. At Monza, he was already chickened off track in the second corner on the first lap. After that, he had enough and did the same to Max in the first chicane, probably knowing how it would end up. Max will think twice about not leaving room on exit when it comes to Lewis at least.


Max will not change shit about his attutide and they'll hit again lol

I'm counting on it! :popcorn:


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