| TBK-Light.com https://www.tbk-light.com/phpBB3/ |
|
| Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 https://www.tbk-light.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11072 |
Page 13 of 13 |
| Author: | Gaara [ Mon May 03, 2021 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Gabriel wrote: Gaara wrote: Instead of bringing in the car park runoffs, why couldn't they have just changed the rules so a car wasn't automatically out of the race if they beached it in the kitty litter? That was where a lot of it came from, fans complaining that otherwise fine cars were out of the race if they just calmly spun into the kitty litter. Yet Lewis Hamilton was taken out of the gravel with a freaking crane at the Nürburgring and kept going. And Schumacher got pushed out at the same track a few years earlier. That's how they all should have been dealt with. |
|
| Author: | Omega [ Tue May 04, 2021 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Now under current regulations, a car stuck in the gravel would always result in SC for at least 3 laps, and I don't know if that would be a good or a bad thing. |
|
| Author: | JJ [ Tue May 04, 2021 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Omega wrote: Now under current regulations, a car stuck in the gravel would always result in SC for at least 3 laps, and I don't know if that would be a good or a bad thing. Well, it's quite rare actually see drivers spin out during the race whether or not there's gravel. Even Monaco is often SC-less, because no one does a single mistake. And lately, quite often they've been able to get out of the gravel trap, so it's not like there would be multiple SC periods. It just makes the risk of mistake bigger and discourages drivers from abusing track limits. |
|
| Author: | Coldtyre [ Tue May 04, 2021 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Gaara wrote: Instead of bringing in the car park runoffs, why couldn't they have just changed the rules so a car wasn't automatically out of the race if they beached it in the kitty litter? That was where a lot of it came from, fans complaining that otherwise fine cars were out of the race if they just calmly spun into the kitty litter. Then there was the absolute stupidness of when they thought of creating 'waves' in the gravel which caused all sorts of messes. And if the BAR drivers hadn't had that bet on taking Eau Rouge flat out... Fan complaints isn't where it came from. First gravel run-offs were removed starting from season 2002, mostly at fast corners first, to prevent dig-ins (and in some slower chicanes like Magny-Cours, to prevent gravel brought back on track). It wasn't in reaction to BAR specifically, because they kept run-offs as they were 3-4 years more on all tracks before changing anything. Flips kept happening even long after the gravel waving was not used anymore. You can take-off and flip even in a perfectly level gravel trap - especially if the car's sidepod is already damaged like Trulli 2004 and Alonso 2016. I am in favor of gravel, but let's not start bending the facts and re-write history here. Tarmac'ing started with good intentions, and in the correct places. Then flipped out of control... just like a car at high speed in a gravel trap. Side note: F1 isn't all motorsports. Moto riders are better off sliding on tarmac than tumbling in gravel. Club racing, gentleman series, and driving experiences/coaching much prefer not having to clean gravel off their cars and change bodywork at every minor off. There are plenty of valid reasons to tarmac stuff, even if it means it sucks for the F1 week-end once a year. |
|
| Author: | RtN [ Tue May 04, 2021 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Coldtyre wrote: Side note: F1 isn't all motorsports. Moto riders are better off sliding on tarmac than tumbling in gravel. Club racing, gentleman series, and driving experiences/coaching much prefer not having to clean gravel off their cars and change bodywork at every minor off. There are plenty of valid reasons to tarmac stuff, even if it means it sucks for the F1 week-end once a year. They thought they were, but they aren't, which is why (for example) Spa is adding gravel back to Radillion and other corners before the motorbikes start racing there. |
|
| Author: | LuckyStrike FAN [ Tue May 04, 2021 3:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Wasn't the fatal accident of Luis Salom the first warning of tarmac not being an absolute safety solution? I wonder what was said and done behind the FIM scenes at the time. |
|
| Author: | Vassago [ Tue May 04, 2021 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
Gravel is safer for motor bikes. They only add the tarmac strip immediately behind the apex but it's only like 3-5 meters wide and then it's all gravel. The big issue for MotoGP was also the width of the run off areas which basically caused Salom's death as he crashed into the tyre wall. Same problem befells Jerez which is an old school track even by old school standards. In fact asphalt run off area was blamed for Salom being crushed by his bike (other than width of the run off itself) since they were on the same trajectory. If the bike got pitched by the gravel then bike & rider would have ended up in different places which is the main reason behind the gravel to begin with. There was asphalt put there because it was deemed a low-risk corner for a bike rider to crash out in this corner. There is no debate, gravel is safer for bikes than asphalt and the Luis Salom crash sadly proved it. |
|
| Author: | JJ [ Tue May 04, 2021 3:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
It's important for motorcycle racing that both the rider and the bike won't slide following the same path. Especially in wet conditions it good to have gravel to slow them down, otherwise the impact might repeat what happened to Luis Salom. Even in dry conditions flipping through the gravel dissipates energy. I think most MotoGP injuries come from highsiders and not from tumbling through the gravel traps. And I don't buy the argument about club racing, since most gentleman races take place at Grade II/III/IV tracks anyway where tarmac runoff areas are non-existent. It's only when F1 decides to host a race they "need" to get rid of grass and gravel. It's not done for the sake of club racing. |
|
| Author: | codename_47 [ Tue May 04, 2021 6:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
When Tarmac runoff first came in I remember they used Schumacher's crash at Silverstone 99 as a big exemplifier of why they should be bringing in Tarmac Despite the fact the Gravel slowed him from 180mph to something like 65mph, and it was a brake failure so who knows if Tarmac would've done a better job in that crash... Don't forget, this is just regarding dry conditions. The runoffs turning into water slides is the reason we have so much sc running in the wet. |
|
| Author: | LucasWheldon [ Tue May 04, 2021 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
I'm pretty sure all their data comes from the monstrosity called Paul Ricard, the track with the worse runoffs since ever |
|
| Author: | Coldtyre [ Wed May 05, 2021 9:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
So, I read a lot of good arguments in favor of gravel, for car and moto racing alike. Why doesn't F1 in particular like them? I mean, a documented reason. Is it from a discussion with the teams? The drivers? Is it: - A safety feature (even compromising on the fact that it's worse for some crashes eg. brake failures and wet track), - A competition feature to allow drivers to stay in the race, - A convenience feature to alleviate damage from out-of-track incursions in practice for example? The thing is any solution is going to be a compromise, and you will always find exceptions or even whole categories of racing (or type of crashes) where it's worse, and others where it's better. But if we knew what was the main driver behind it, then we would better understand the logic, and accept the inevitable compromises it causes. Some tarmaced areas just don't make any safety sense - eg. the exit of La Source at Spa, and the hairpin exit at Hockenheim, with miles of run-off at the exit of a slow-speed hairpin. Nobody is going to die there, not even a motorcyclist. Nobody is going to flip there (from dig-in at high speed). Nobody is going to go off there even - unless you're the dumbest of amateurs who don't know how to drive a car. It feels like it's there for pure driver/team convenience and to facilitate competition, at race starts and overtakings. |
|
| Author: | Gabriel [ Wed May 05, 2021 5:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
I may be completely wrong, but I think if there was still gravel exiting Radillion, Anthoine Hubert would still be alive. |
|
| Author: | codename_47 [ Wed May 05, 2021 8:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
There's also the fact the tarmac makes a good area for advertisments, either physical or CG. |
|
| Author: | MotoKris1 [ Wed May 05, 2021 9:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Formula 1 Heineken Grande Prémio de Portugal 2021 |
codename_47 wrote: There's also the fact the tarmac makes a good area for advertisments, either physical or CG. Turismo Carretera don't care about tarmac, they will dig through every surface with ads anyway  Same with I think Bathurst. But yeah, it doesn't look that good |
|
| Page 13 of 13 | All times are UTC+01:00 |
| Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Limited https://www.phpbb.com/ |
|