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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:30 am 
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NVirkkula wrote:
The driver who is making a pass is always responsible to make it work and foresee if there's grip or not. It is as simple as that.


I agree the driver making the pass has responsibility for making it work given everything they can reasonably anticipate, but I don't agree that absolves the car in front of any responsibility to drive fairly and predictably. The passing driver can only be expected to make good decisions if they have some idea of the limits of what the car ahead will do. If the car ahead closes the passing car's path off to a car's width of undriveable surface or a lane with a slow car in it (another incredibly stupid defensive maneuver seen in F1) at a point where the car behind can't back out of the move safely, it should be on the car ahead. This isn't black or white like you're reading it, there are shades of gray to how to judge these things, closing rate and timing of the front car's lane change being big ones.

NVirkkula wrote:
You blame Bottas because you like Russell over him, you would blame him if he was the one failing the overtake attempt with roles reversed.


Seriously, fuck off already with your personality assumptions. You have no idea who I like or dislike, and I certainly have no trend of anti-Bottas or pro-Russell posts here. Just because you form your arguments around whether you like a driver and what country they come from doesn't mean everyone else here does.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:57 am 
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NVirkkula wrote:

You blame Bottas because you like Russell over him, you would blame him if he was the one failing the overtake attempt with roles reversed.


Dude....you are really doubling down here. I'm sorry that you feel that everyone is having a go at you because Bottas and Kimi are Fins like yourself. We are having a go at them because quite frankly they have been underwhelming, it just so happens that they are Fins. But being Finnish has nothing to do with it.

Indeed the vast majority of us here are big Hakkinen fans and I for one even liked Mika Salo. As an Aussie I loved Mark Webber but even I could see that he was actually just OK, did the job, but was nothing amazeballs. Just like Bottas and Kimi.....and if he continues to race like he is, even my beloved Ricciardo.

Take five, and realize that people aren't attacking you, but going around calling people racist isn't going to win you any friends.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:36 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
This is a really good take on the incident and it actually changes my mind. I respect Scott Mansell's analyses as a driver and coach, he always has very good insights.

It's also clever how he did the video with a fan friend of his, because I feel like I am that fan (I had the same 60-40 responsibility split against Bottas in my mind) but Scott's arguments as a driver are compelling and Russell possibly came to the same realisation after settling down.



I think Scott uses a very common F1 argument to justify Bottas's actions here, that as the leading car you can do whatever you like when someone's trying to overtake as long as you leave a car's width. Two problems with that: 1) at a certain point the passing car runs out of time to react to what the leading car's doing, and I think that was marginal in this incident, and 2) the passing car can't be held responsible for failing to forsee he might not have enough grip on the car's width the leading car chooses to leave him. What if instead of a wet track it was a dry lane with a slow lapper 100 feet up the road? At what point is the leading car responsible for forcing the passing car into an accident? I still think the accident is 100% Bottas's fault by any reasonable assessment, but also that F1 has never had a reasonable assessment of fair racing.

I see your point, and what you state is why unlike Scott, I'm leaving part of the responsibility to Bottas (never 100% though, this is definitely not a 100-0 kind of incident in my opinion). Sometimes, as a driver, you have to be smarter than just doing what you're entitled to do given the circumstances. Had he been more predictable and left more than one car width, he would have saved his car. Some drivers like Hamilton or Kimi are very good at keeping their nose clean, perhaps they'd have given more space foreseeing that the wet track may cause the opponent to run into them. They don't HAVE to, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to bring it home or just stay alive really.

As for the technique of using a backmarker to box someone in a "slow" lane, that is used very often as a defensive technique and I see nothing wrong with it. Now, you have to be reasonable with it, if you're lapping a car with 100kph speed difference, you'd pass them wide and leave the car beside you a space, that's just common sense and decency. You also leave more or less space depending who you're racing, and how hot/impatient the driver behind you looks, or if you see a really dangerous situation developing that the guy behind can't see - not the case here, both drivers have the same knowledge about the track status.

It's all about racecraft in those grey areas, and this was the kind of situation where you needed the two drivers to be absolutely 100% sharp in their racecraft and assessment of the situation. Both didn't (to varying degrees that we will not agree on I guess) and it ended in disaster because it happened exactly at the wrong place at the wrong time.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:07 pm 
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Fuck this thread, Fuck Russell, Fuck Bottas.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:27 pm 
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webbsy wrote:
NVirkkula wrote:

You blame Bottas because you like Russell over him, you would blame him if he was the one failing the overtake attempt with roles reversed.


Dude....you are really doubling down here. I'm sorry that you feel that everyone is having a go at you because Bottas and Kimi are Fins like yourself. We are having a go at them because quite frankly they have been underwhelming, it just so happens that they are Fins. But being Finnish has nothing to do with it.

Indeed the vast majority of us here are big Hakkinen fans and I for one even liked Mika Salo. As an Aussie I loved Mark Webber but even I could see that he was actually just OK, did the job, but was nothing amazeballs. Just like Bottas and Kimi.....and if he continues to race like he is, even my beloved Ricciardo.

Take five, and realize that people aren't attacking you, but going around calling people racist isn't going to win you any friends.



Man f*ck off, I didn't say EVERYONE is having a go at me or felt like so. Just felt like one particular individual who I have a history with, might have had hidden agenda. English is only my 3rd language so you should be able to see that difference when it's your mother language.

And if we go back to Bahrain thread, even before Russell was in to replace Hamilton, y'all went rooting for Russell. And since then you've been hoping him to replace Bottas, who I have agreed is under performing and is talking too much. Your point of view on the accident is biased if you see Bottas making a move on Russell and causing the accident...because telemetry doesn't show him doing so. And Michael Masi confirmed that their data shows it was a racing incident...which means Bottas didn't cause it and Russell didn't do it on purpose. And I don't really like Bottas, so fuck off you too, Philthy82.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:39 pm 
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NVirkkula, aren't you taking this too seriously? It doesn't matter at all what's people's view on Bottas-Russell accident. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So what if they're biased or have hidden agenda? Let them. It doesn't mean anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:48 pm 
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JJ wrote:
NVirkkula, aren't you taking F1 too seriously? It doesn't matter at all what's people's view on Bottas-Russell accident. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So what if they're biased or have hidden agenda? Let them. It doesn't mean anything.



Of course everyone is having their own opinions. I just got fed up because one toxic person has been picking me up way too often.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:21 pm 
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man you should calm down. we all must focus our hatred to the source of all evil here, that is the Mercedes F1 team and they do, from silver sportscars to men in midlife crisis to Barbie jeeps directed to people like Kardashians and of course ruin F1 with trashtalking like "our car isn't the best"

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:24 pm 
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The next race can't come soon enough :roll:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:01 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
man you should calm down. we all must focus our hatred to the source of all evil here, that is the Mercedes F1 team and they do, from silver sportscars to men in midlife crisis to Barbie jeeps directed to people like Kardashians and of course ruin F1 with trashtalking like "our car isn't the best"




Hate? Where the fuck do you pick up hate from my last few posts?!

Also, happy birthday.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:06 pm 
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ah thank you

I don't mean hate, but channel all the bad energy towards a Mercedes failure. I've been trying that since 2017 at least but in vain

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 2:51 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
1) at a certain point the passing car runs out of time to react to what the leading car's doing, and I think that was marginal in this incident


And I think this is a crucial point.

Bottas' move was similar to what Norris did when defending against Hamilton, but he did it with Russell much closer.

And it's quite easy to judge such a situation with slow-motion replays and having all the time to reflect on what was a split of a second decision.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:03 am 
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Scotty wrote:
NVirkkula wrote:
Of course everyone is having their own opinions. I just got fed up because one toxic person has been picking me up way too often.


I picked apart your incorrect or flimsy arguments and you called me racist and weak minded instead of politely debating it. You've gone on tell two other people here to fuck off.

Remind me again who's toxic?


No, you started off by calling me names, that's not what I call polite debate. And out of those two people who I told to gon get, one told me to go fuck off first and the other was twisting my words. Don't act like that didn't come out of nowhere for them.

And you're still the toxic one with your habits of attacking anyone here who says something that you don't agree with. I could go on and pick dozen of examples of this from the past year alone.

Edit: just do everyone here a favor and leave out of your "polite debates". I most certainly wouldn't miss communication with you.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:20 am 
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webbsy wrote:
Indeed the vast majority of us here are big Hakkinen fans and I for one even liked Mika Salo.


I think Salo doesn't get enough recognition for jumping into Schumacher's Ferrari and doing a good job, even taking into account unrestricted testing at the time. Plenty of later drivers proved just how difficult that is, even if you're an active driver.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:11 pm 
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I'll always remember Salo as the driver who didn't smoked but had a bad lung problem similar to it because of brake dust

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:48 pm 
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gkmotorsport wrote:
webbsy wrote:
Indeed the vast majority of us here are big Hakkinen fans and I for one even liked Mika Salo.


I think Salo doesn't get enough recognition for jumping into Schumacher's Ferrari and doing a good job, even taking into account unrestricted testing at the time. Plenty of later drivers proved just how difficult that is, even if you're an active driver.


I'll always think that was a major piss in the face of Luca Badoer. That was the moment for him to drive the Ferrari in race conditions, not 10 years later.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:25 pm 
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LucasWheldon wrote:
I'll always remember Salo as the driver who didn't smoked but had a bad lung problem similar to it because of brake dust

Everytime I met him, he was smoking. That was after his F1 career though, but he was still racing.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:03 pm 
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so after all it was just a smoke screen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:04 pm 
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There are number of people who complain about certain drivers.
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Finnish drivers smoking? That's hardly a shock. Everyone still remembers how chain smoker Keke Rosberg looked much better physically compared to Prost & Piquet after the 1982 Brazilian GP? Who says smoking is bad for your health?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:35 pm 
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Häkkinen smokes as well.
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So does Kimi. Don't know about Valtteri. Maybe that's the missing ingredient.


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