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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:17 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
The wall is not remotely 45 degrees angle to the track. Grosjean's angle of impact was somewhere near 45 degrees due to the contact with Kvyat, but track barriers are always designed with a certain set of possible car trajectories in mind; the direction the Haas went almost certainly wasn't one of them, and I don't think a car has ever gone off there at that angle. Tracks need angled walls to allow for marshal entry and exit, and the angle is maybe 10 degrees into the track vs a standard straight closed barrier. I doubt the angle had much to do with the severity of the wreck.

The use of armco is something that needs serious investigation though, I can't imagine how any open cockpit series let alone what's supposed to be the very pinnacle would approve a track for use with Armco anywhere, even the unlikely bits. It's excusable for a saloon or closed cockpit series, but there have been enough examples across the last 50 years of what happens to an open cockpit car in a head-on collision with a guardrail to not keep repeating it.


They should investigate the remains of that barrier to see the reason for failure. It's not supposed to fail like that, maybe the compatibility with F1 noses should be looked at more closely.
The collisions you mention happened at higher angles, where you'd have protection nowadays. They also had flimsier barriers, or only two layers instead of 3.

That being said, I agree with the points you made. Maybe the only way to go for a straightaway should be concrete walls, up to a certain angle where it has to be concrete + SAFER.
There is still benefit to Armco from deflection though, so I din't see Monaco changing for example as the track is not wode enough to get those sort of impact angles, but yeah... Lots of work ahead for the FIA to prevent this from happening again


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:35 am 
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We're talking a lot about the FIA and track safety, but what about driver behaviour ?

People spent the race chopping each other on the straights an din braking zones. I thought they'd be more cautious our of respect for human life after seeing one of theirs almost die burned alive, yet nothing's changed.

And don't give me the "drivers be drivers" talk. There is hard racing, and dangerous racing. There used to be one or two lunatics that did this in the entire field (Senna, Schumacher) and they were confronted for it by others. Nowadays, fair racers who keep their line are the exception. There won't be any barrier or track design against airplane crashes caused by chopping contacts at 350


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:40 am 
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Coldtyre wrote:
We're talking a lot about the FIA and track safety, but what about driver behaviour ?

People spent the race chopping each other on the straights an din braking zones. I thought they'd be more cautious our of respect for human life after seeing one of theirs almost die burned alive, yet nothing's changed.

And don't give me the "drivers be drivers" talk. There is hard racing, and dangerous racing. There used to be one or two lunatics that did this in the entire field (Senna, Schumacher) and they were confronted for it by others. Nowadays, fair racers who keep their line are the exception. There won't be any barrier or track design against airplane crashes caused by chopping contacts at 350


Verstappen's chop block on Kimi at Spa when Kimi had DRS could have been the worst crash we've ever seen and there was no penalty


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:44 am 
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Beezle wrote:
JJ wrote:
James B wrote:
When I saw the car flash across the screen, into the barrier and burst into flames, I thought whoever was driving it was dead.

I think we all did today.


I did not think that, because I thought I saw that the fire was behind the armco, so I wrongly assumed sparks and maybe fuel from the impact lit some object behind the barriers on fire.
I did not think the object burning largely behind the barrier was in fact the cockpit. If I'd have known that, I would have been damn sure he's dead already.


I'm with you. I didn't have an oh he's dead thought. I thought that that the fuel cell was ruptured but the car took a hit from the back and that he would jump out quick smart, and that it wasn't at a huge racing speed. Of course once I saw what actually happened I had the how in Hell's name is he alive thought. But live, no I didn't think so. I probably should have though.

Kubica in Canada was the one I was watching live and though, damn he's dead. Alonso in Melbourne I thought he would be seriously injured. When the reality is THIS one was the one that had the higher likely hood of death.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 8:49 am 
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Coldtyre wrote:
We're talking a lot about the FIA and track safety, but what about driver behaviour ?

People spent the race chopping each other on the straights an din braking zones. I thought they'd be more cautious our of respect for human life after seeing one of theirs almost die burned alive, yet nothing's changed.

And don't give me the "drivers be drivers" talk. There is hard racing, and dangerous racing. There used to be one or two lunatics that did this in the entire field (Senna, Schumacher) and they were confronted for it by others. Nowadays, fair racers who keep their line are the exception. There won't be any barrier or track design against airplane crashes caused by chopping contacts at 350


This was a self inflicted crash and a long long time in the making, not just from Grosjean's side but also Stroll's. Stroll, off track with a damaged car, cut right across the track to basically take his natural line in front of the pack causing them to check up, instead of easing back onto it. Grosjean did the rest.

The severity of the end result was shocking, but not the crash itself for me. But guess what....no one will see any reprimand or punishment for it. When there should be.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:11 am 
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webbsy wrote:
Beezle wrote:
JJ wrote:
I think we all did today.


I did not think that, because I thought I saw that the fire was behind the armco, so I wrongly assumed sparks and maybe fuel from the impact lit some object behind the barriers on fire.
I did not think the object burning largely behind the barrier was in fact the cockpit. If I'd have known that, I would have been damn sure he's dead already.


I'm with you. I didn't have an oh he's dead thought. I thought that that the fuel cell was ruptured but the car took a hit from the back and that he would jump out quick smart, and that it wasn't at a huge racing speed. Of course once I saw what actually happened I had the how in Hell's name is he alive thought. But live, no I didn't think so. I probably should have though.

Kubica in Canada was the one I was watching live and though, damn he's dead. Alonso in Melbourne I thought he would be seriously injured. When the reality is THIS one was the one that had the higher likely hood of death.



My initial fear was for the marshals at that spot. It took ages before we gotten a replay. Even after they showed Grosjean sitting in the medical car.


Now the day after I wonder if they ever put a neck-brace on him at any point. They pulled him from the scene, put him in the medical car, got him from the medical car and walked him to the ambulance. I dont recall him wearing one at that point.

My alcoholic ex-father in law once took a drunken tumble and broke his neck and the doctors freaked out when they found out he drove to the hospital by himself the day after.
Even with HANS surely there would be concern for his neck with such an impact.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:17 am 
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I've read Ricciardo is very upset with the fact so many replays were shown.

I tend to agree with him, those images were really shocking even though he wasn't fatally injured.

But hey, drama sells.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:20 am 
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Fabs wrote:
I've read Ricciardo is very upset with the fact so many replays were shown.

I tend to agree with him, those images were really shocking even though he wasn't fatally injured.

But hey, drama sells.


If he is upset what they showed now, he better not watch S3 of drive to survive :whistling:

But I can see where is is coming from. But knowing us and other people who watch it. The majority would be complaining they didnt show it enough if they barely showed any replay.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:49 am 
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You think that's bad - NASCAR is using the Newman wreck as promotion

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:54 am 
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mclaren2008 wrote:
You think that's bad - NASCAR is using the Newman wreck as promotion


In the driver presentation video I'm pretty sure they use Jos Verstappen's fireball when they go to Max.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:59 am 
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Drivers reactions during the lap to the pit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:14 am 
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webbsy wrote:
Coldtyre wrote:
We're talking a lot about the FIA and track safety, but what about driver behaviour ?

People spent the race chopping each other on the straights an din braking zones. I thought they'd be more cautious our of respect for human life after seeing one of theirs almost die burned alive, yet nothing's changed.

And don't give me the "drivers be drivers" talk. There is hard racing, and dangerous racing. There used to be one or two lunatics that did this in the entire field (Senna, Schumacher) and they were confronted for it by others. Nowadays, fair racers who keep their line are the exception. There won't be any barrier or track design against airplane crashes caused by chopping contacts at 350


This was a self inflicted crash and a long long time in the making, not just from Grosjean's side but also Stroll's. Stroll, off track with a damaged car, cut right across the track to basically take his natural line in front of the pack causing them to check up, instead of easing back onto it. Grosjean did the rest.

The severity of the end result was shocking, but not the crash itself for me. But guess what....no one will see any reprimand or punishment for it. When there should be.

It's like Mugello. It's like Max behind Perez at Turkey (and almost vs Giovinazzi in free practice) - and BTW Max's spin is underrated because in the rain, after a crest, he could've been chopped in half by another car if he stopped at the bad spot.

They're making it a habit of crashing in a straight line by pure risk-taking and bad choices. By keeping the foot in and driving off the asphalt (Albon had a nice taste of the consequences on Friday too...). A split second before Romain got sideways, I was looking at people driving left and right off the track and wondering why the heck do we still see this long after turn 1/2 and before any braking zone??

Then when such a thing is done at 150kph like Vettel at Canada, in plain visibility, after a honest mistake and with little physical risk to the drivers, they get penalised on the spot.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:46 am 
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Agreed on the driving standards. The way the field was bunched together through the first few corners with drivers tripping over themselves didn't feel right. There were cars going off the track on both sides, Stroll rejoined in the middle of traffic, and there were one or two cars carrying damage as well. Everything concertinaed up and it felt like something was going to happen. I don't know what can or should be done about this, because technically no one did anything "illegal", but I guess it was inevitable that a lot of very fast F1 cars driven by aggressive young drivers through a narrow, twisty piece of track was eventually going to end up this way

We're still only a year removed from a driver dying in a support race and it doesn't feel like anyone's maturing. Maybe this was the shock they needed - the restart was certainly less fraught


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:15 am 
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Still can't believe this is what he climbed out of. The tub looks even cracked at the knees although that could be an illusion.

If this isn't promotional material for a survival cell then I don't know what is. You never see High G-forces, foreign object penetration, and fire resistance tested all at once in a single event.

Image

We will probably never see it, but the FIA driver-facing camera in the cockpit must be wild to watch during his escape.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:16 am 
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So apparently on one of the stops Bottas only swapped 3 wheels instead of 4. Check right front.
They do use the wheelgun on it but that might be to trigger the green light.




And just confirmed that Pietro Fittipaldi will replace Grosjean the coming weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:13 pm 
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James B wrote:
Agreed on the driving standards. The way the field was bunched together through the first few corners with drivers tripping over themselves didn't feel right. There were cars going off the track on both sides, Stroll rejoined in the middle of traffic, and there were one or two cars carrying damage as well. Everything concertinaed up and it felt like something was going to happen. I don't know what can or should be done about this, because technically no one did anything "illegal", but I guess it was inevitable that a lot of very fast F1 cars driven by aggressive young drivers through a narrow, twisty piece of track was eventually going to end up this way


Just before the camera cut to the shot that showed the crash live, I thought to myself "something's going to kick off". The midfield was 4 wide and bouncing off each other, it felt like Talladega when you just know something's about to happen. Of course I was expecting someone to end up backwards in a gravel trap, or maybe knock off a front wing, not what actually happened. I don't think you can do much about it though - that sort of bunching up is always going to happen at some point, do x number of grid starts over the course of a season and eventually circumstances will align and the pack will end up on top of each other.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is track design, by which I mean tarmac run off allowing drivers to floor it while completely off the track. Having cars speeding through the run off on both sides of the track definitely added to the chaos. I don't know if gravel traps would have made any difference, but we're seeing this kind of thing often enough now for it to be worth looking into, I think.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:24 pm 
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Schumifan wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is track design, by which I mean tarmac run off allowing drivers to floor it while completely off the track. Having cars speeding through the run off on both sides of the track definitely added to the chaos. I don't know if gravel traps would have made any difference, but we're seeing this kind of thing often enough now for it to be worth looking into, I think.


There is a patch of gravel to the left of the track on that section, where Raikkonen went through.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:33 pm 
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amq55 wrote:
Schumifan wrote:
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is track design, by which I mean tarmac run off allowing drivers to floor it while completely off the track. Having cars speeding through the run off on both sides of the track definitely added to the chaos. I don't know if gravel traps would have made any difference, but we're seeing this kind of thing often enough now for it to be worth looking into, I think.


There is a patch of gravel to the left of the track on that section, where Raikkonen went through.


True, and it does seem to slow him down a little bit more than Stroll on the right. Like I said, it may not have made any difference in this case - any gravel trap on the right hand side could well be too small to make any serious difference. Just throwing another talking point into the mix, I think it's relevant in the wider context of driving standards.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:46 pm 
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I haven't read through the thread yet but I'll just say this (even though the points have probably already been made).

-The crash was 100% Grosjean's fault. It's almost a miracle he's OK and I'm glad he is.

-It shouldn't be possible to crash into a barrier on a straight at that severe of an angle. That is quite frankly an awfully designed piece of track. The barrier needs to be parallel to the track (or as close as possible) and the end of it should be further away from the track. They could do with filling that ditch on the infield so that the access road can be moved.

-The race was shit. DRS needs to go.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2020 1:47 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
Looking at the replay again from the trackside camera, he first tried to get out from the top of the Halo as usual, felt blocked by the barrier, then went for the gap on the side of the Halo! Which was the only clear way out.

Very good job by design to have made that lateral gap large enough to fit a driver. This makes the Indy canopy a bit concerning. He'd have not had a way out if the canopy was stuck exactly the same way.



No, that gap is not big enough for helmet to go through, Grosjean still came out from the top hole, just from the other side of the guardrail. Still very tight squeeze and he was lucky there was just enough space for him to get out.

Image


Image

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