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The DQ in Spa is certainly debatable but a black flag at Silverstone for a petty "overtake" on a formation lap was a farce and everyone knows it. The team were absolutely right to ignore a bogus black flag for that and the 2 race bans to follow for that were even more farcical. Social media would be in an uproar if a driver got a black flag for that today. But it's purely thanks to those type of silly decisions that made it a fabricated close championship and brought Hill back into the old. Take away even 3 of those non-results for Schumacher and Hill wouldn't even have a sniff at the championship and if Senna hadn't met his cruel fate then at worst it likely would have come down to the wire in Adelaide again. But whoever thinks that Senna would have crushed Schumacher without 3 of those bogus non-results in play...well all I can say is I'd like to have a bit of what you're smoking cause it sounds pretty effective.

Anyway, apologies for dragging this thread somewhat off-topic but just felt certain stretches and "ifs" made earlier in the thread had to be addressed, at least from my perspective. At the end of the day, certainly both Schumacher and Senna unquestionably make it to my Top 5 GOATs of F1 for what they brought to the sport.

The black flag was put out not for the overtakes but because Schumacher failed to serve the stop-go penalty he was assessed for the overtakes.

The ban, if I recall correctly, was because this was not the first time that year that Schumacher had failed to obey stewards' instructions and the FIA had a Cartman moment.

As has been noted, if they had had a vendetta against Benetton/Schumacher, they had 3 gift-wrapped opportunities to throw them out of the championship completely and refused to take them, so I don't think bias comes into it.

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Dan Wheldon ¦ 1978-2011
Marco Simoncelli ¦ 1987-2011
Jules Bianchi ¦ 1989-2015
Justin Wilson ¦ 1978-2015

Yeah, I know he's mad and I don't care. I do not care. I did not care then. I do not care now. I'm here to race him.

So that proves why Schumacher will never be the greatest of all time. It always brings forth discussions about how much he cheated or deliberatly ran into other people. He was good, he was fast, but he has too much bagage.
Senna could be an asshole too. Senna ran into other people (but Suzuka 90? I completely understand why he did it). But Senna was soo much beter, that people remember him for the amazing driver that he was, and with Schumacher there's always that hint of being unfair that will haunt him forever.

That's something you won't find with Hamilton. I don't like him, I really don't. But has he done things on track that weren't fair? Hardly. He whines like a little girl over the radio about everything he doesn't like, but he doesn't drive around chopping, blocking or running into other cars.

By the way, I think Jackie Stewart should be in the list. I can't judge him on his driving but if you're a 3 time champ in the 60's and 70's, you're good. But he did so much to improve safety that his greatness continued outside of the cockpit.

And he built a race winning team!

Yeah Jackie as well.

Also, Graham Hill. He is still the only driver to win Le Mans, Monaco, and Indy. Although, his Indy win is a bit controversial.

Jackie also had dyslexia and is world champion that got the closest to participate on summer olympics

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Motorsports trend for 2024: everything is a bad taste joke now

Al-Attiyah is a Dakar winner but never came close on winning WRC championship

Bob Wollek also was close to enter winter olympics on skiing but had to retire after an injury

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Motorsports trend for 2024: everything is a bad taste joke now

Zanardi failed in F1 but was the best in Indycar, and won many gold medals on the Paralympics...

how a driver drives on track is a big factor for me in my decision. schumacher is the dirtiest driver on this list, so he rates fairly low for me. senna drove dirty when prost forced him to, so i give him a pass for that (prost is a douche, so he also falls to the bottom). most of today's drivers bully everyone around them off of the track like they're in a video game. we complain about passing, and yes the aerodynamics are a major factor - but any remaining opportunities for good side by side racing are hampered by weak and vague enforcement of sportsmanship regulations. verstappen swerving in braking zones for example (baku especially)

hamilton is one of the strongest drivers on my list because he can still be the fastest driver on the track and get wins while respecting the other drivers at the same time. rosberg knew this and used it against hamilton the year he got his championship. he knew he couldnt race against hamilton fair and still win. this also had a knock-on effect of mentally and emotionally wounding hamilton. lewis got stronger in those areas after that year and has been untouchable since. in the past 3 years i think lewis still wins the championship regardless of whether he was sitting in a ferrari or a mercedes.

all of the drivers listed here have elite speed; but lewis makes the team better, he makes the people around him better, and he drives with integrity. that puts him at the top of my list right next to jackie stewart

The black flag Schumacher got at Silverstone always confused me; at what point was it written in the rules that overtaking on the formation lap was illegal, or that overtaking the polesitter during the formation lap was illegal?

At the Brazilian Grand Prix that year, in the video below at 10:52 you can clearly see Schumacher overtaking the polesitter Senna on the formation lap:



He doesn't just pull along side and get slightly ahead, he drives completely past Senna and then several car lengths ahead. Was the no formation lap overtaking rule only implemented later on after Brazil or did the FIA fuck up/not care?