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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:01 pm 
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anything to keep Mercedes away from the victory, great racing, great win

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Motorsports trend for 2023: throwing cautions and red flags unnecessarily


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:11 pm 
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Toto Wolff in his finest whining form today...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:22 pm 
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Coldtyre wrote:
This is a textbook example of why "Bottas" is synonymous with boredom and sadness for me. He won't give you the same excitement as Hamilton or Ricciardo or Verstappen. When they catch someone, you know shit's up.


Bottas is Kimi Ferrari Version 2.0. Just bland and not prepared to have a full on crack at it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:42 pm 
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Hamilton was fighting against Leclerc with fresh tires while Bottas did so with worn tires. There's a huge difference of what can be achieved with 3rd fastest car against the fastest with straight line speed benefit under those conditions. Bottas started 3rd and finished 2nd while Hamilton started 2nd and finished 3rd after burning his medium tires away on fruitless attempts to overtake Leclerc, who was racing with the fastest car today.

You want to call out Valtteri for running wide in the chicane on lap 50? How about Leclerc running over that kerb and Lewis using the escape road after locking up?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:02 pm 
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James B wrote:
Philthy82 wrote:
James B wrote:

Yeah, if he'd driven inside the rules he wouldn't have won that race. Meh
Yeah, boo to fighting to hold off a faster car behind you. He should have raced politely and let Mercedes past. If Hamilton can give Charles credit for his win, maybe he was just doing what you have to do in F1 to win.


Or maybe Lewis is just being polite in public having made his feelings clear on the radio earlier in the race?


He's definitely just being polite in public:

[From BBC] Hamilton tells Sky Sports: "It was good fun. It doesn't really matter what I think (about Leclerc moving under braking). We have gone over and over and it's pointless talking about it.

"It seems like the new generation get away with a lot more in that area, in that space with how they manoeuvre their car with say, the more experience drivers - but it's good knowledge now I know... I look forward to the next one."


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:53 pm 
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I really wanted LeClerc to win, but I thought his moves were questionable. Even more frustrating is that he didn't even need to make them.

Squeezing under braking at the second chicane... Lewis wasn't ahead going into the corner, and he never would have made it around the outside from that position, so all he had to do was leave a car's width. Instead he risked contact, which could have put both cars out. Very lucky to get away without a penalty. I have nothing against pushing the limits, but he didn't leave enough space.

Then there was a late reaction move going through Curva Grande. Again, the Ferrari had the speed advantage, so Charles should have picked that side earlier, and forced Lewis to the outside again. The Ferrari would have won the battle on straight line speed, and Charles would have had the inside for the chicane. It was another risk that he didn't need to take, and I've always hated reaction blocks. The fact that it happened on a slight curve might have made it look cleaner than it was.

As for LeClerc missing the first chicane, I think that was right not to give a penalty. Hamilton wasn't challenging in the braking zone and I don't think that he saved a position. However, drivers were penalised for it in the F2 race, and DeVries even gave up a place when he made a similar mistake, so that could have gone either way, if the stewards were being consistent.

So yeah, happy for a Ferrari win at Monza, and hoping LeClerc will continue to race hard, but not go over the limits of what is acceptable.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:06 pm 
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Don't think Leclerc didn't need to make that moves. Had Hamilton overtaken him, there is a good chance his medium tyres would last without having to withstand the dirty air.

I think calling Leclerc's moves as dirty is too much. I think they were in the borderline and the black/white flag for him was the right thing to do. The problem with such a decision, of course, is that it came in a day when the stewards had a ton of job to do and a day when they gave much room for complaints of inconsistency.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:10 pm 
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I wonder how Ferrari is going to deal with their drivers' lineup for next year. I can't see any context for Vettel to stay at Ferrari for next year, even though he is under contract. And unless Ferrari is okay with calling Kimi back while they find someone for 2021, they need to sort this as soon as possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:10 pm 
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This all goes back to Austria and the Verstappen/Leclerc fight. Leclerc tried to fight fair then and lost the win because of a questionable move from Max. I dont like where we are heading one bit.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 9:19 pm 
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EAS wrote:
Don't think Leclerc didn't need to make that moves. Had Hamilton overtaken him, there is a good chance his medium tyres would last without having to withstand the dirty air.

I think calling Leclerc's moves as dirty is too much. I think they were in the borderline and the black/white flag for him was the right thing to do. The problem with such a decision, of course, is that it came in a day when the stewards had a ton of job to do and a day when they gave much room for complaints of inconsistency.


Well, yes, the stewards were inconsistent in their decisions over the whole weekend. First there was the qualifying farce, where they penalised F3 drivers but didn't penalise F1 drivers for similar. And then they allowed Leclerc to get away with shoving Lewis onto the grass at 150+ mph, after penalising Zhou for an almost identical move on Latifi in the F2 race, presumably on the basis that one caused a puncture and the other didn't

We had it 5 years ago - the FIA took no action against drivers for barely lifting for double-waved yellows, then chucked Bianchi under the bus when he did what every other driver had done before and made a mistake that cost him his life. Is that what's going to happen here? Are we going to have a car in the crowd before they do anything? I don't want to see races ruined by penalties as much as anyone else, but I also don't want races ruined by dangerous driving, and I definitely don't want to see drivers injured or killed by completely manageable driving standards that are being allowed to run out of control


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:18 pm 
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EAS wrote:
I wonder how Ferrari is going to deal with their drivers' lineup for next year. I can't see any context for Vettel to stay at Ferrari for next year, even though he is under contract. And unless Ferrari is okay with calling Kimi back while they find someone for 2021, they need to sort this as soon as possible.


Well, maybe they can give Hulkenberg a go for one year/as long as it takes for Schuey Jr to get his special engine and Win F2

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:42 pm 
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Whispering quietly....even Ralph seems better than Mick....

But seriously if Seb walks away now, he will have people questioning how good he really is (people already are), walking away after been beaten by a second team mate. I know drivers say that don't care about that kind of stuff, and as a 4 time world champ he shouldn't, but surely that must play on his mind and ego.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:11 am 
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That's the saddest thing of Seb's debacle for me - his legacy becomes questionable because of his awful current form.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:58 am 
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I know it sucks to go out feeling like you still have to prove yourself all over again but he needs to retire before his legacy gets even worse still. It's just embarassing if you think how bad he has been for the past few years, especially given he was supposed to be Ferrari's 'lead' driver who would bring back the world title to them.

Baku 2017: Intentional contact with Hamilton under Safety Car.

Singapore 2017: Serious misjudgment at the start and unnecessary risk-taking resulting in retirement.

Mexico 2017: Opening lap tangle, first with Max Verstappen and then Hamilton in the next corner.

Baku 2018: Flat-spotting tyres in a desperate overtaking attempt and compromising his race.

France 2018: Overshot braking point and rammed into Valtteri Bottas.

Austria 2018: Grid penalty from blocking Carlos Sainz in Q2.

Germany 2018: Crashed out of the lead.

Italy 2018: Crashed into Hamilton while being overtaken, spun and dropped to the back of the pack.

Japan 2018: Spun following desperate, miscalculated lunge inside Verstappen.

USA 2018: Grid penalty from not slowing down in red flag period AND during the race, spun while trying to overtake.

Bahrain 2019: Spun out after getting passed.

Italy 2019: Spun out on his own then drove in front of oncoming traffic


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:36 am 
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SB83 wrote:
I know it sucks to go out feeling like you still have to prove yourself all over again but he needs to retire before his legacy gets even worse still. It's just embarassing if you think how bad he has been for the past few years, especially given he was supposed to be Ferrari's 'lead' driver who would bring back the world title to them.

Baku 2017: Intentional contact with Hamilton under Safety Car.

Singapore 2017: Serious misjudgment at the start and unnecessary risk-taking resulting in retirement.

Mexico 2017: Opening lap tangle, first with Max Verstappen and then Hamilton in the next corner.

Baku 2018: Flat-spotting tyres in a desperate overtaking attempt and compromising his race.

France 2018: Overshot braking point and rammed into Valtteri Bottas.

Austria 2018: Grid penalty from blocking Carlos Sainz in Q2.

Germany 2018: Crashed out of the lead.

Italy 2018: Crashed into Hamilton while being overtaken, spun and dropped to the back of the pack.

Japan 2018: Spun following desperate, miscalculated lunge inside Verstappen.

USA 2018: Grid penalty from not slowing down in red flag period AND during the race, spun while trying to overtake.

Bahrain 2019: Spun out after getting passed.

Italy 2019: Spun out on his own then drove in front of oncoming traffic


UK 2019: slammed into the back of Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:46 am 
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Oh yes, how could I forget that one :slaphead:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:55 am 
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I'm curious. Are the people that whine about Leclerc deserving a penalty the same that whined after Canada because the race was ruined with the penalty?

I saw a brilliant race, tension until the last lap, on a circuit that has not produced good racing for years. Yes, Leclerc was too defensive that time in turn 4. He got a warning. Don't do it again. But imagine they gave him a 5 sec penalty like they did in Canada. Gone tension, both Mercedes cars only have to stay close enough. No more action, no more pushing to the limit and making mistakes. No more fans sitting on the edge of their seat until the last lap.

The stewards learned from Canada and I'm glad they did. The 2019 Italian GP was brilliant because of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:02 am 
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I thought the same thing, we want the drivers to race right? and the FIA let them, so props to them for that

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:07 am 
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Omega wrote:
I'm curious. Are the people that whine about Leclerc deserving a penalty the same that whined after Canada because the race was ruined with the penalty?

I saw a brilliant race, tension until the last lap, on a circuit that has not produced good racing for years. Yes, Leclerc was too defensive that time in turn 4. He got a warning. Don't do it again. But imagine they gave him a 5 sec penalty like they did in Canada. Gone tension, both Mercedes cars only have to stay close enough. No more action, no more pushing to the limit and making mistakes. No more fans sitting on the edge of their seat until the last lap.

The stewards learned from Canada and I'm glad they did. The 2019 Italian GP was brilliant because of it.



Its a very thin line.
I agree with "let them race" but imagine the outcry, especially after what happened in Spa (F2), if Hamilton had a massive crash because of it.

I certainly think racing should be hard. Especially when its for the win but I wouldnt want to be a steward or the FIA and having to deal with the outcome of a big crash. Which eventually will happen.

Where do you draw the line?
I think this is case where the Stewards cant do it right.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:24 am 
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Omega wrote:
I'm curious. Are the people that whine about Leclerc deserving a penalty the same that whined after Canada because the race was ruined with the penalty?

I saw a brilliant race, tension until the last lap, on a circuit that has not produced good racing for years. Yes, Leclerc was too defensive that time in turn 4. He got a warning. Don't do it again. But imagine they gave him a 5 sec penalty like they did in Canada. Gone tension, both Mercedes cars only have to stay close enough. No more action, no more pushing to the limit and making mistakes. No more fans sitting on the edge of their seat until the last lap.

The stewards learned from Canada and I'm glad they did. The 2019 Italian GP was brilliant because of it.


I am quite perplex by the over reaction to it all to be honest. In my opinion was nothing to any of it, just racing. He didn't swipe at him, there was nothing dramatic about his movements. I didn't feel he was trying to run him off the road at all, Hamilton was trying to hang on to the outside for as long as he could. He could have eased off the the throttle a tad earlier when it was evident that going around the outside of him wasn't an option. Charles whilst making life difficult for Lewis probably thought Hamilton would have eased off.

The incident no one is talking about is the Sainz and Albon one. That was a case of Sainz trying to have him off the track I feel.

The way everybody is carrying on anyone would think Charles did a Pastor and blatantly tried to have him off.


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