TBK-Light.com :: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland

Ospi wrote:

There isn't always less grip on those runoff areas, sometimes it's a lot more abrasive and the build up, particularly around a very slow hairpin is bugger all. Areas such as that, drivers regularly go way off the racing line and around the very outside (unused) areas of the race track on slow corners leading to the start finish for the start of their qualifying laps to get a better run to T1, infact we used this very tactic at Townsville in the V8 and our data proved it was a better tactic. This was also after hordes of support racing and so forth.

Way to FIGJAM yourself into the conversation, with something that's completely irrelevant, you've been in V8SC what 3,4 weeks? What "data" do you speak of? Lap time data? Engine RPM vs. wheelslip data? I am guessing it's just delta speed data, which has so many variables its uses are negated. Besides, the bit you speak of isn't completely off the track, didn't even have the same corner dynamic (mid corner vs. outside of the exit of the corner) doesn't have astroturf, on it, was a completely different scenario (starting a hot lap vs. live racing) and is of an entirely different car with dynamics that couldn't be any different to a Formula 1 car. You're not even close to the mark, not even in the right suburb, terrible comparison.8

I'll guess I'll join myself in the FIGJAM act and say that I've spent 12 months as a tyre and powertrain engineer for my FSAE team, analysing heaps of tyre data plots such as normal and lateral force plots, camber plots, tyre coefficient graphs for various tyre compounds, friction coefficients for various surfaces, reading through plenty of thesis' that study tyre technology. I can tell you categorically, you're wrong, I am right. We get massive data differences compared to the straight line testing we do at uni (rough car park with dust, silt everywhere) relative to the stuff we do at proper go kart tracks. Sometimes, the grip is 2.5 to 3 times higher on the 2 surfaces, this analogy can probably be stretched to the scenario we see today.

Sorry to bang on a bit, but anyway. I do believe it was correct to give Sebastian a penalty, because technically he broke the rules, but he had an incredibly difficult move to pull off, in difficult conditions when the pressure was on, Jenson choked, he did well, he did it brilliantly, however not within the bounds of the rules.

Author:	Ospi [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Slight difference between two tyres and an entire car though. He certainly wouldn't have used it if it were a grassed area as he did, which was the point made. He never had the corner, he never owned that overtake and he certainly didn't have the right to use an area outside the extents of the "track" to his advantage to complete a move which he didn't deserve in the first place.

Author:	Ospi [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
I still fail to see how it is relevant to what happened in Germany, in which he would not have utilised grass had it existed instead of the tarmac to make a pass on Button. Instead he went for what was available (thanks to questionable track design decisions) which only ended up hurting him more.

Author:	kals [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
The relevance is that people keep saying that had Vettel been pushed on to the grass, he would have backed off. The video and overtake from Monza proves otherwise.

Author:	Ospi [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
In the context of this race, not what you used. What people have been saying is that if there was grass instead of tarmac off track at the hairpin, he would not have used it, which clearly he wouldn't, unlike Monza which was a completely different scenario.

Author:	bigears [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:05 am ]
Post subject:	2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
I seem to remember Schumacher or Hamilton doing a very similar thing in the past, overtaking on that piece of Tarmac.

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Author:	Philthy82 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:06 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Nutty forum logic kicking into high gear now. IMO there's not much to argue here beyond the usual FIA backdrop of inconsistency. They have been inconsistent on this and may actually have two contradictory rules in place (can't force someone off track, but do have the right to take the racing line if ahead) but the facts here are pretty clear: * Rules say you can't complete a pass off track unless you're forced * Video shows Vettel went off track before Button closed off the line * Vettel, the man making the move himself, confirmed Button's movements had nothing to do with it as Vettel couldn't even see him * Rule has always been a drive-through penalty for this infraction Therefore, Vettel completed a pass illegally, has admitted he was not forced into it, and knew the penalty for this. He had the opportunity to redress it and avoid penalty (keeping 3rd at worst, likely passing Button soon after) but he didn't. What about this is confusing?

Author:	kals [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Come on Plithy, be sensible. Logic has no place here.

Author:	Gael [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
So basically, using the run off area when you're by yourself is fine, but if you use it to pass someone, it's a no-no? Cause I'm pretty sure we saw most/all drivers get all 4 wheels off the track at some point or another during the race. I didn't think what Vettel did was that bad, yeah, he wasn't on the track, but he wasn't cutting any turns.

Author:	alex1369 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
kals wrote: alex1369 wrote: If there were gravel or grass Vettel would simply back off, but with so manny stupid run off tarmacs FIA f..... up themselves and the drivers big time. Bring back at least grass and no one would overtake on grass. Indeed he would... [youtubeidiot]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPnQC3eEYqg[/youtubeidiot] ..oh wait! But in a hairpin!, and not in a mild corner like in Monza

Author:	Ospi [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
a) How do you know there is less grip out there and b) Seb was much earlier on the throttle thanks to the fact he had created a much wider radius turn for himself which gave him a better run out of the hairpin.

Author:	Bleu [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
bigears wrote: I seem to remember Schumacher or Hamilton doing a very similar thing in the past, overtaking on that piece of Tarmac.

Author:	Ospi [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Scotty wrote: a) Captain Obvious is reporting for duty here but it's not the race track. Tons of tyre debris, silt, dust, rubbish would've built up there while the race track had 24 cars run over it for 60 laps. Would've had at least 2-3 times less grip than the race track. Think about the cars that ran off at turn 1, they lost time even though they were still on tarmac run off. There isn't always less grip on those runoff areas, sometimes it's a lot more abrasive and the build up, particularly around a very slow hairpin is bugger all. Areas such as that, drivers regularly go way off the racing line and around the very outside (unused) areas of the race track on slow corners leading to the start finish for the start of their qualifying laps to get a better run to T1, infact we used this very tactic at Townsville in the V8 and our data proved it was a better tactic. This was also after hordes of support racing and so forth. The fact he planted it noticeably earlier whilst making a b-line for the runoff area and certainly from what was seen from the tv had no issues with grip or having to fight the car given these atrocious run-off area conditions (didn't touch any astroturf either)...well it kind of implies he gained something from it.

Author:	Caspar [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
All for the show (non existing in the race), bit of headline favors everyone

Author:	Coldtyre [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
kals wrote: The relevance is that people keep saying that had Vettel been pushed on to the grass, he would have backed off. The video and overtake from Monza proves otherwise. On one side, you have a split-second 2-wheel 300kph ride with enough momentum to complete the pass, which indeed happened. On the other side, you enter the grass at the same speed as another car accelerating on tarmac hoping to get better traction than him. Vettel has a brain you know. The fact it's the same driver in the video doesn't mean he would do the same in a completely different context. I was expecting better from you, kals.

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Author:	Zorba [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Massa X kubica - 2007 http://youtu.be/blp7hPFaIfU

Author:	BrainPain [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Why bother having white lines that outline the track if you could drive around on any piece of tarmac available to overtake? I can't understand how people disagree with the penalty.

Author:	Caspar [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Jenson also has a narrower turn to make and was spinning his rears, whilst Vettel could straighten up earlier. In doing so he didn't stay within the track limits.

Author:	MaTT [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
BrainPain wrote: Why bother having white lines that outline the track if you could drive around on any piece of tarmac available to overtake? I can't understand how people disagree with the penalty. Yup, pretty much. I've agreed ever since I saw this happen.

Author:	Philthy82 [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
Scotty wrote: Ospi wrote: There isn't always less grip on those runoff areas, sometimes it's a lot more abrasive and the build up, particularly around a very slow hairpin is bugger all. Areas such as that, drivers regularly go way off the racing line and around the very outside (unused) areas of the race track on slow corners leading to the start finish for the start of their qualifying laps to get a better run to T1, infact we used this very tactic at Townsville in the V8 and our data proved it was a better tactic. This was also after hordes of support racing and so forth. Way to FIGJAM yourself into the conversation, with something that's completely irrelevant, you've been in V8SC what 3,4 weeks? What "data" do you speak of? Lap time data? Engine RPM vs. wheelslip data? I am guessing it's just delta speed data, which has so many variables its uses are negated. Besides, the bit you speak of isn't completely off the track, didn't even have the same corner dynamic (mid corner vs. outside of the exit of the corner) doesn't have astroturf, on it, was a completely different scenario (starting a hot lap vs. live racing) and is of an entirely different car with dynamics that couldn't be any different to a Formula 1 car. You're not even close to the mark, not even in the right suburb, terrible comparison.8 I'll guess I'll join myself in the FIGJAM act and say that I've spent 12 months as a tyre and powertrain engineer for my FSAE team, analysing heaps of tyre data plots such as normal and lateral force plots, camber plots, tyre coefficient graphs for various tyre compounds, friction coefficients for various surfaces, reading through plenty of thesis' that study tyre technology. I can tell you categorically, you're wrong, I am right. We get massive data differences compared to the straight line testing we do at uni (rough car park with dust, silt everywhere) relative to the stuff we do at proper go kart tracks. Sometimes, the grip is 2.5 to 3 times higher on the 2 surfaces, this analogy can probably be stretched to the scenario we see today. Sorry to bang on a bit, but anyway. I do believe it was correct to give Sebastian a penalty, because technically he broke the rules, but he had an incredibly difficult move to pull off, in difficult conditions when the pressure was on, Jenson choked, he did well, he did it brilliantly, however not within the bounds of the rules. Impressive as both of your motorsport backgrounds are, you don't need to have a job in the paddock or a physics degree to understand this. Drivers have been using tarmac runoffs on corner exit to gain a laptime advantage throughout races since they started paving them, see any Abu Dhabi race for reference. Rubber and crap offline doesn't seem to negate that, maybe because so many drivers do it. Don't know how this is a surprise to anyone who's seen an F1 race in the past 10 years.

Author:	Peter [ Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Formula 1 Grosser Preis Santander von Deutschland
I comprehensively disagree with FIA's stewarding because, A, Vettel took a longer route to complete the pass, it makes the racing great. Passing off the track is a marvel because drivers need to risk to a certain degree to do that. That white line dictated by the FIA in this case is very much like Brian Barnhart's invisible line in his ridiculous blocking rule. And, B, this is the very first time FIA ever penalized a driver who takes a longer route to overtake, it has never, ever happened in the entirety of F1's history, and the precedent was it was mutually allowed before last Sunday. The FIA is just interfering way way too much with the racing. Ridiculous that all I want to say about the penalty.