TBK-Light.com :: 2012 Random F1 Discussion

Webber has been competitive enough for Red Bull to win races, get poles, help RBR win constructors, and has been 10x closer to winning the drivers championship than Massa ever has.

and has been 10x closer to winning the drivers championship than Massa ever has.

Massa has single handedly cost Ferrari 2 constructors titles (2010 and 2012). All he had to do was slightly be closer to Alonso and be more competitive and there was a chance Ferrari could win it those years.

2007 yes definitely Kals. His shenanigans in Budapest and binning it at Fuji cost him. And well, his implosion in general but I don't think you can say 2010 and 2012 he choked. That was the team.

Alonso choked this year, he did the same in 2010 and 2007. Earlier in the season Alonso had a very handsome lead, something he was happy to vocalise and boast about...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102348/

Alonso only choked because Grosjean used him as a brake in Belgium, had he managed to finish in the points there and the rest of the season played out as it did, Fred would have been Champ.

I am not a fan of either, but you could also say Seb tried his hardest to throw it away too, and luck played a massive part, so I'm not really sure it's fair to point the finger at Alonso while chanting "Choker! Choker!" as most of what happened was outside his control...

I don't believe in any of that. If the accident hadn't happened in Belgium (or Suzuka) then there was always a possibility of something else happening at another time. You cannot guarantee the exact series of events post Belgium, had Alonso finished in the points there.

You've misunderstood my point.

Let me put it another way. Assuming Alonso finishes in the points in Belgium, does not immediately guarantee him the title as you cannot be certain the remaining events and results would have been the same for him. Make sense?

Author:	ryan86 [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:37 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
I disagree with 2010 Scotty. Massa would have had to have taken the title to the final round there for Ferrari to stand any chance of winning the Constructors.

Author:	Schumifan [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Scotty wrote: Webber has been competitive enough for Red Bull to win races, get poles, help RBR win constructors, and has been 10x closer to winning the drivers championship than Massa ever has. Fact time - Webber has 9 wins for Red Bull, Massa has 11 for Ferrari. Webber has 11 poles for Red Bull, Massa has 15 for Ferrari. Massa has helped Ferrari towards 2 constructors championships. Massa has come closer to winning the drivers championship than Webber has. Massa has also proven himself to be a far more co-operative no. 2 driver, rather than Webber who still pisses and moans and refuses to help even when he's 100 points behind his team mate in the last race of the season. Doesn't seem that unbelievable that people are saying Massa is the better no. 2 driver.

Author:	ellis [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
People will sit and say "Well Webber let Vettel through in the race". Yeah, he did. He also blocked Vettel off the line which let both Ferraris through, and decided 3 wide later in the race was a good idea. So he was pretty damn unhelpful. Massa actually done a fantastic job at help. Also, Quote: and has been 10x closer to winning the drivers championship than Massa ever has. Massa lost the title on luck. Lewis admitted he was just passing every car he could, hoping he'd get it. Massa lost the title through no fault of his own, on the final corner, of the final lap, in the final race. That's closer than Webber has ever been. Quote: Massa has single handedly cost Ferrari 2 constructors titles (2010 and 2012). All he had to do was slightly be closer to Alonso and be more competitive and there was a chance Ferrari could win it those years. Oh come on. Webber isn't that far ahead of Massa for crying out loud.

Author:	webbsy [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Was looking through the F1 archives and if Alonso had scored just 11 more points in his career he would have been a 5 times world champion instead of a two time world champion. Pointless fact I know because it is IF he scored, but just saying...

Author:	kals [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Alonso has now choked more times than Nigel Mansell.

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Author:	webbsy [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
2007 yes definitely Kals. His shenanigans in Budapest and binning it at Fuji cost him. And well, his implosion in general but I don't think you can say 2010 and 2012 he choked. That was the team.

Author:	NVirkkula [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
webbsy wrote: 2007 yes definitely Kals. His shenanigans in Budapest and binning it at Fuji cost him. And well, his implosion in general but I don't think you can say 2010 and 2012 he choked. That was the team. He made his own mistakes in 2010 and 2012 also. But using term "choked" doesn't fit for this season, that is unless you count getting beaten by Massa in terms of qualifying and race speed in the last three races.

Author:	kals [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Alonso choked this year, he did the same in 2010 and 2007. Earlier in the season Alonso had a very handsome lead, something he was happy to vocalise and boast about... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102348/

Author:	Mika Kimi [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Alonso didn't choke in my opinion, Red Bull simply brought a significant update and Vettel made the most of it.

Author:	Gaara [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
And Ferrari and Alonso got rattled by it. Someone mentioned before that the update Alonso had but Massa didn't took longer to set up.

Author:	NVirkkula [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
kals wrote: Alonso choked this year, he did the same in 2010 and 2007. Earlier in the season Alonso had a very handsome lead, something he was happy to vocalise and boast about... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102348/ That's a hilarious boast now, given the fact that both Vettel and Alonso retired only once after that.

Author:	OS [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
At that time Vettel had only won once, Alonso had most victories with three and nobody looked like stringing 4 in a row together ... still, hindsight is a wonderful thing and the Red Bull throughout the year had the potential to be great, it just took a while to maximise, as transpired shortly after that quote ...

Author:	Ian-S [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Alonso only choked because Grosjean used him as a brake in Belgium, had he managed to finish in the points there and the rest of the season played out as it did, Fred would have been Champ. I am not a fan of either, but you could also say Seb tried his hardest to throw it away too, and luck played a massive part, so I'm not really sure it's fair to point the finger at Alonso while chanting "Choker! Choker!" as most of what happened was outside his control...

Author:	ellis [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Ian-S wrote: Alonso only choked because Grosjean used him as a brake in Belgium, had he managed to finish in the points there and the rest of the season played out as it did, Fred would have been Champ. I am not a fan of either, but you could also say Seb tried his hardest to throw it away too, and luck played a massive part, so I'm not really sure it's fair to point the finger at Alonso while chanting "Choker! Choker!" as most of what happened was outside his control... Alonso took himself out of Suzuka though? Alonso didn't choke in the Will Power kind of way, where he comes in and bins it under pressure. But the last third of the season, Massa had the edge on him. It wasn't a huge choke no doubt, but his lack of performance is was did it in the end.

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Author:	Ian-S [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
Yeah I forgot about Suzuka, but my point still stands, had Grosjean not found him and everything played out as it did (Suzuka included) he'd had lucked into the win.

Author:	kals [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
I don't believe in any of that. If the accident hadn't happened in Belgium (or Suzuka) then there was always a possibility of something else happening at another time. You cannot guarantee the exact series of events post Belgium, had Alonso finished in the points there. And I agree with ellis on this. I used the term "choke" in a cruel but (failed) humourous manner. My joke clearly failed.

Author:	cambridge [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
kals wrote: I don't believe in any of that. If the accident hadn't happened in Belgium (or Suzuka) then there was always a possibility of something else happening at another time. You cannot guarantee the exact series of events post Belgium, had Alonso finished in the points there. He hasn't spun a single time in the year. He hasnt had a car failure a single time in the year. He was starting 6th. You are going to tell me that it's not reasonable to think that he could have easely ended the race at least in 9th position?

Author:	kals [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
You've misunderstood my point. Let me put it another way. Assuming Alonso finishes in the points in Belgium, does not immediately guarantee him the title as you cannot be certain the remaining events and results would have been the same for him. Make sense?

Author:	Ian-S [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
kals wrote: You've misunderstood my point. Let me put it another way. Assuming Alonso finishes in the points in Belgium, does not immediately guarantee him the title as you cannot be certain the remaining events and results would have been the same for him. Make sense? and you misunderstood mine. Nobody can deny things may have played out differently, that wasn't the point, if you read my post out loud, you'll understand what I meant. If you forever want to play the if, but's and maybe's game against every possible scenario, then you're missing the point. This is the kind of discussion where nobody is right and nobody is wrong, probably pointless all in but fun all the same.

Author:	cambridge [ Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2012 Random F1 Discussion
kals wrote: You've misunderstood my point. Let me put it another way. Assuming Alonso finishes in the points in Belgium, does not immediately guarantee him the title as you cannot be certain the remaining events and results would have been the same for him. Make sense?