FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2014

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:43 pm

Philthy82 wrote:

What exactly have Renault done in the past few years to deserve respect as an engine supplier? Their engines have consistently produced the least power the past 4 years, but Red Bull have managed to work past that with a great chassis and aerodynamics. It's just that this year's block is such a POS that no level of great chassis design could make it a consistent frontrunner, despite the fact that the RB10 is apparently still very good through the twisty stuff.

This year's Renault is both the slowest and least reliable of F1 engines, which is quite a feat. And no other team has gotten anywhere near the lead in a Renault engine this year, which sorta wets the theory that Red Bull just haven't packaged it right. After such a poor showing at their home GP (where they were the only Renault team to score a point) Red Bull have every reason to complain.

Why does it have to just be about power? The Renault engine of the past few years has been great is many other areas. Power isn't the be all and end all.

Philthy82 · PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:48 pm

Fish88 wrote:

If you see that Lotus is nowadays nowhere to be seen, shows how big a factor the engines played in that success

But since Lotus is still running Renaults, doesn't that make them equally a factor in their current nowhere-ness?

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Lotus have got more things to be concerned about right now than the Renault engines.

Fish88 · PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 2:13 pm

Philthy82 wrote:

Fish88 wrote:

If you see that Lotus is nowadays nowhere to be seen, shows how big a factor the engines played in that success

But since Lotus is still running Renaults, doesn't that make them equally a factor in their current nowhere-ness?

True, but you made the impression that it was all due to chassis that RBR won the last 4 championships and now it is all due to engine that they are failing now. I think Renault deserves a bit more respect for their role in those championships (yes respect isn't going to bring the further at the moment).

phil1993 · PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:52 pm

There's been a lot of criticism for Renault (rightly), but equally not many people have been criticising Ferrari for doing perhaps a worse job. Both have been humiliated by Mercedes.

ellis · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:25 am

Ferrari have stayed where they are. Renault have rocketed backwards. That's why there's a difference.

webbsy · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:15 am

Red Bull making overtunes about the Renault engines is not a new thing. They have been critical of them basically since their whole tenure. Didn't Red Bull try to get a Merc engine a few years back and were shot down? They have been worried about their performance for a long time now, this year has just amplified that.

phil1993 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:38 am

Alonso's performing miracles in that car. It's such a shitbox, the power delivery is hopeless, top speed isn't great and the chassis isn't brilliant either. Even looking at the onboard camera in Austria, Alonso had understeer on entry then mid-corner oversteer.

Some of Raikkonen's problems is the ability to feel the front end and getting the tyres warmed up properly, although in Austria he had more problems with the brakes.

I think the biggest difference is that Ferrari has been fairly reliable, whereas Renault has been, on the whole, a little quicker but not as reliable. Plus no-one from either of the three teams are complaining about Ferrari's power unit because a) Marussia has a Ferrari driver, b) Sauber's car is so shit and loose that they need to sort that first and c) Ferrari won't be complaining about their own power unit!

mclaren2008 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:21 pm

Good news, tickets for next year's race are already on sale. June 21 is the date.

Fish88 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:23 pm

Was great to see the huge crowds.

kals · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:30 pm

One thing I'll give Christian Horner and Red Bull some credit for, is that during their post-Austria criticism of Renault's performance they made it clear that if the current situation remains unchanged that they would look for a new engine partner for 2016 onward. So it's not as if they are attempting to jump ship immediately for 2015. Red Bull are choosing the stick method for motivating Renault, as opposed to the carrot.

ellis wrote:

Ferrari have stayed where they are. Renault have rocketed backwards. That's why there's a difference.

Perception is everything in F1. Even if the reality is very different.

Have Renault gone backward or is it that Mercedes have gone so far forward that Renault's perceived performance has dropped significantly, even though they've in actuality stayed in exactly the same place in comparison to Ferrari?

ellis · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:42 pm

Yeah Renault have gone backwards. They said themselves that the teams had to run with reduced power, and it still failed. And then in Montreal they said they'd for the first time allow the teams to run at full power and we could "judge them against Mercedes". Well, the engine is still slow, and still breaks. So it's still crap.

Renault themselves made excuses all the way up till Montreal, and since Montreal there has been no performance increase with the engines. I'd say out of the 3 engines that the Renault is comfortably the worst. Red Bull having a pretty sorted chassis, and Ferrari having a crap one masks that a bit.

kals · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:50 pm

From memory Renault had engine failures through 2009 until 2013 (mostly Red Bull) and also failures through ancillary units (again, mostly Red Bull), they're having engine failures in 2014 (Red Bull again...). Yes they've turned they've required all teams to turn the engines down but they've also achieved multiple podiums and beaten all Mercedes teams (bar Mercedes) fair and square at an out and out power and performance circuit (Canada). Some of that performance will be down to the chassis, but we're beating up on the engine unfairly because as has been mentioned many a time, the team achieving that performance are contributing to the reliability issues. Now and in the past.

phil1993 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:54 pm

Remember that Red Bull also frequently runs with a high-downforce set-up, which accentuates the apparent lack of straight line speed.

Renault has had major problems, no doubt, but I think the problems are no more than what should be expected. Perhaps pushing too hard in an era which is totally new. If anything, it shows what is normal, and in turn what an outstanding job Mercedes has done.

mclaren2008 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:08 pm

Fish88 wrote:

Was great to see the huge crowds.

Yep, if there was any need to show that F1 is still critical in Europe, this weekend was it.

Vassago · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:42 pm

phil1993 wrote:

Remember that Red Bull also frequently runs with a high-downforce set-up, which accentuates the apparent lack of straight line speed.

Renault has had major problems, no doubt, but I think the problems are no more than what should be expected. Perhaps pushing too hard in an era which is totally new. If anything, it shows what is normal, and in turn what an outstanding job Mercedes has done.

Red Bull's success was mostly down to Newey's aero magic. But that's irrelevant in the turbo era which is all about engines. It's no coincidence Newey quit the pitwall job with Red Bull since he knows best all his tricks are useless under current regs. Either RB find a new engine partner or Renault improves massively with their units, otherwise they're gonna be spanked all over the shop and only winning in fortunate circumstances like Canada.

kals · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:54 pm

If this era is all about the engines and Newey's trick are useless under the current regs, then how is it that Red Bull are second in the constructors championship and are beating all the Merc teams bar Mercedes itself? Let's give a little credit to the work and achievement that Mercedes have created. It's not all about the engines.

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:48 pm

Yeah, the aerodynamics are still pretty important, but the power unit as a whole is now more important than before. The ERS, the power, torque and efficiency are more important than in the V8 era. It's more like a move away from 2007 all-aero period towards to 2004 all-power period, in my mind.

And about the Red Bull moaning about Renault. They keep complaining about the reliability a lot, like they'd be the only team suffering. Just like last couple of year with the tires. Then they brilliant forget how they've still been a top performing team. They stfu'ed for a minute in Montreal for the Austrian anthem and then again started bashing Renault.

When RBR says they're about 30 hp down on Mercedes, I think they really mean that with the additional 30 horses, they'd be the ones dominating the Mercedes. They're not down by 30hp, probably more like 10 or 20.

phil1993 · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:56 pm

NVirkkula wrote:

When RBR says they're about 30 hp down on Mercedes, I think they really mean that with the additional 30 horses, they'd be the ones dominating the Mercedes. They're not down by 30hp, probably more like 10 or 20.

In Canada apparently Red Bull was around 60hp down on Mercedes.

RtN · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:12 pm

Ferrari's engine problem stems from the fact that their engines are powering a mule, something that should be in the knackers yard and something built on the spare change found down Graeme Chilton's sofa.

I strongly believe Red Bull has the best chassis this year because they are very very fast through all the high and medium speed corners. Aside from some occasional STR wizardry, the other Renault cars are nowhere, ever. If the Ferrari engine were in a better chassis, it would be closer to the front than any of the Renault cars.

Mercedes obviously has the best complete package.

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FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2014

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