Gael wrote:
50/50, two typically overaggressive drivers took each other out.
I agree with you, this is Formula One
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| Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) https://www.tbk-light.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=7652 |
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| Author: | phil1993 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
It's this 'you no longer go for a gap' racing mentality that a lot of drivers possess; something which Senna used to justify ramming Prost off the road in Suzuka '90, an action which would be decried nowadays. I just wonder how frustrated Williams must be getting. They have one very fast driver who keeps throwing it away and the other who's just extremely average. Pastor lost 8 points in Australia, 15 in Valencia and an unknown amount through his incidents in Monaco and Montreal. Instead of being comfortably ahead of Sauber in the championship, they're narrowly fending off an improving Force India. |
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| Author: | Gabriel [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
One car was on track, the other wasn't. Car off track is at fault. |
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| Author: | Rudy88 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
For me it's a clearly 50/50 incident. Hamilton made the decission to defend his position which he can do ofcourse. He knew that his rear tyres where gone at that point, he wouldn't have been able to overtake Maldonado again if he lost his position. Hamilton also knew that Maldonado isn't a driver who gives up a fight that easy. I'm sure he knew at that point that he took a big gamble. And in Pastors point of view, maybe not a good decision. After catching Hamilton he must have known that he had some badly damaged rear tyres. Most likely his team also informed him over the radio. He should have had more patience, he had time enough to overtake Hamilton in the remaining 1 and a half lap. But on the other hand he made his move and he was next to Hamilton on the outisde of the corner. Lewis made a good defending move by pushing him gently offline and off the track. Most drivers do this for defending and after they overtake someone. But then you can't blame Maldonado for not giving away his position. Maybe that was the best option but in the end, it was Maldonados decision. We all know the outcome. Both drivers made a gamble and most likely they where highly aware of the possible consequences. Both drivers saw their race ruined and I don't see why one or both drivers should be penalized. Maybe Maldonado for continuing with a damaged front wing, but not for the accident itself. |
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| Author: | DutchFan [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Gael wrote: 50/50, two typically overaggressive drivers took each other out. I agree with you, this is Formula One
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| Author: | Peter [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
It was obviously Maldonado's fault. I don't even want to talk about that. The point I want to raise is why almost all the new drivers in this overtaking-loaded race managed to crash into someone. Grosjean and Maldonado, Bruno Senna and Kobayashi, Vergne and Petrov, Narain and Charles Pic. I was just surprised to see that Perez had actually kept it clean. I wonder why the new drivers' driving standard had gone to such a lowly point in the last 2 years. I remember when a crash was a crash when driver simply over drove the limits, drove over-dangerously, or flat out crashed other drivers intentionally; but now all these crashes are simple misjudgements, all of these new drivers crashes' were unnecessary and fully avoidable. The only 2 new drivers I could see with some good race craft is Paul di Resta and Nico Hulkenburg. F1 will really become a crash-fest if the driving standard does not improve. btw: I found it really funny that the team Williams have recruited 2 crash hippies. Almost in every race you'd see one of their drivers involved in accidents and incidents. Sometimes they'd even crash into each other(Malaysia). They kind of reach the borderline of funniness in their accident inducing idiosyncrasy; but it is even funnier after every crash they would duly point out that it is the other driver's fault. |
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| Author: | ellis [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Maldonados fault. It's generally accepted that if a driver is behind then running them into run off area is considered acceptable. It's considered so acceptable that Maldonado did it at least twice during the race before it was done to him. Trying to compare being run into empty tarmac to being run into a solid wall is just silly. One allows the driver to use the escape road, the other causes a massive accident. |
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| Author: | ellis [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Peter wrote: I wonder why the new drivers' driving standard had gone to such a lowly point in the last 2 years. I remember when a crash was a crash when driver simply over drove the limits, drove over-dangerously, or flat out crashed other drivers intentionally; but now all these crashes are simple misjudgements, all of these new drivers crashes' were unnecessary and fully avoidable. I'd argue that driving standards in F1 now are significantly higher than at any other point in F1s history. |
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| Author: | alex1369 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Maldonado because he was off the line, not 2 wheel but all 4, accident could have been avoided. I would have cutted the chicane. He would overtake him anyway... just a little patience. |
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| Author: | Chris A [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
The wreck wouldn't have happened if Hamilton hadn't forced Maldonado off in the right-hander. And then he just took the normal racing line into the left-hander as if Maldonado had ceased to exist. I'm not pro- or anti-Hamilton but he made his own bed in this one. Maldonado tried to set up a clean pass, Hamilton decided against racing cleanly, and Maldonado made sure he paid for it. The actual contact you could put to Maldonado or 50/50, but the whole incident goes on Hamilton's shoulders because he took a clean-racing situation and ruined it. Which brings me to something in F1 that bugs me more than just about anything else: overtaking and defending tactics. Or rather, one tactic in particular, which is the use of corner exit to run a driver off the track. (I know I've mentioned it at SG a couple times but I can't recall if I ever discussed it here). Whether a driver is going to the inside to advance a spot or going to the inside to take a defensive line, a good amount of them will just take the normal racing line on exit and try to run the other driver off. It's incredibly dirty and arrogant racing and I can't for the life of me understand why race control and the drivers themselves put up with it. |
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| Author: | Shaddix [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Chris A wrote: The wreck wouldn't have happened if Hamilton hadn't forced Maldonado off in the right-hander. And then he just took the normal racing line into the left-hander as if Maldonado had ceased to exist. I'm not pro- or anti-Hamilton but he made his own bed in this one. Maldonado tried to set up a clean pass, Hamilton decided against racing cleanly, and Maldonado made sure he paid for it. The actual contact you could put to Maldonado or 50/50, but the whole incident goes on Hamilton's shoulders because he took a clean-racing situation and ruined it. Totally agree on this! |
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| Author: | kals [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Well, those blaming Hamilton can sleep easy in the knowledge that Martin Whitmarsh agrees with them - http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/100724 How is this guy still in charge of this team? |
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| Author: | Gaara [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Eh? He says Lewis should have been more cautious fighting Maldonado and he's spot on. |
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| Author: | kals [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
I know that's what he says. |
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| Author: | ellis [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
IMO he should have been more caution. It's still Maldonados fault, but Lewis could have avoided the whole thing. After the race he was asked if he thought he could hold on with the tyres he had and said no - so he knew he was going to lose that spot, and pushed the issue with a driver known for stupid mistakes. A smarter driver would have let that one go. He could maybe tyre that move on someone else, but with Maldonado you're both going to end up in the wall. Pastor caused it, Lewis would have avoided it. As it stood, both lost out. |
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| Author: | ellis [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
kals wrote: I know that's what he says. Blaming Lewis for the accident and saying he could be more cautious are 2 wildly different things. In fact Whitmarsh even contradicts your post - "My own view is that it was Maldonado's fault..." |
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| Author: | kals [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
Saying he could be more cautious only serves to support the other driver, which by association could lead people to believe Whitmarsh blames Lewis for the incident. Ok, so it's a tenuous link but still. And yes I get it, it is another sensationalist article where Martin was asked a simple question that he then answers which is blown out of proportion by the media. I just think, Lewis and Jenson have suffered greatly this year thanks to issues with the team, pit stops and car performance and yet Whitmarsh still hangs on to his job. |
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| Author: | SFM [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
In my opinion it was more Maldonado's fault so I was a little bit surprised but the penalty. It was trying not to cut the track and had no room to go resulting in the contact. I mean he could have jumped over the bump but you can't expect all drivers to cut the corner in case there is no room. Years ago there was gravel. |
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| Author: | Lucasjeha [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
50/50, Hamilton gave him no room and Maldonado never gives up, tried to put the car were there was no room and took Hamilton off, if Hamilton has left the room for a car there, that wouldn't happen also if Maldonado waited a bit as Hamilton tires were totally wasted he could have passed in another place. |
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| Author: | Neil [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
75% Maldonado's fault. He knew Hamiliton's tires were knackered. He could have been patient and tried again later in the lap. He should have taken the run off and rejoined safely. Maldonado seems content to attempt an overtake and leave the decision of whether or not they'll have a crash. Hamilton could probably have given Maldonado a bit more space, possibly even let the position go (although doing that would be against most racing drivers' ethos). |
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| Author: | gd49 [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Who's at Fault Valencia Edition (Spoilers) |
I think 50/50's fair - both drivers could have avoided the accident. Seems harsh to penalise Maldonado given there's blame on both sides. I agree that the habit of squeezing the car on the outside off track needs to be looked at. Yes tarmac run offs mean most drivers will avoid an accident, but that doesn't make it right. Have there been any examples where the driver on the outside has refused to be run off the road? Hamilton could certainly have shown more intelligence by leaving more space on the apex of the second corner - if Maldonado was going to try and take the corner rather than the shortcut, he was always going to come back on there. |
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