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2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA **Spoilers**
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Author:  Fabs [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
ellis wrote:
Biggest DRS issue I see is it's complete inconsistent. It depends on so many factors that sometimes DRS is far too effective and sometimes it achieves nothing at all. How they can tackle that I don't know, but that seems like it's biggest issue to me.

Let's hope they have some people in the FIA looking at this issue and eleminating this consistency. I guess practice makes perfect for the DRS system.

StefMeister wrote:
However if there going to have a DRS zone at Spa I think the entire length of the start/finish straght would be a better place to put it, Thats the sort of place where DRS may create opportunities without it been too easy.


Seems like a good spot indeed.
Author:  Rubmifer [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Knowing the fia they'll probably do it on the Kemmel straight...
Author:  codename_47 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Majority of overtaking after Eau Rouge is done in a straight line anyway due to the length of the straight, it's actually rarer for cars to be side by side by the time they get to the braking zone than have it sewn up on the straight, so again its DRS getting flak when it's not deserved.

Track like Spa you can only put it on that straight though, most other places have high speed kinks in them that would turn DRS from an overtaking aid to a guaranteed crash.

Start finish straight is too short, methinks, and good luck putting it in before Eau Rouge, like people need less downforce approaching that corner...
Author:  kals [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Rubmifer wrote:
Knowing the fia they'll probably do it on the Kemmel straight...


Knowing the FIA they won't listen to the fans to try to understand how to improve using the device.
Author:  StefMeister [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
codename_47 wrote:
Majority of overtaking after Eau Rouge is done in a straight line anyway due to the length of the straight, it's actually rarer for cars to be side by side by the time they get to the braking zone than have it sewn up on the straight, so again its DRS getting flak when it's not deserved.

Track like Spa you can only put it on that straight though, most other places have high speed kinks in them that would turn DRS from an overtaking aid to a guaranteed crash.

Start finish straight is too short, methinks, and good luck putting it in before Eau Rouge, like people need less downforce approaching that corner...
Which goes back to something I mentioned in my earlier post, I don't think DRS is needed at every track.

Run with DRS where its felt its really needed, Don't run it at all at tracks where its not.


If you look at fan reaction, When DRS makes things too easy most complain, However when it either does nothing or works more like intended there is very little (If any) critisism.
As long as they keep running DRS everywhere & keep putting it places where its not needed its going to keep producing the sort of easy looking passes which is going to keep the critisism's loud.

I have never liked DRS & likely never will, However I would be more accepting of it & be less vocal against it if it stopped making things look too easy & running it only where something to aid passing is truly needed would go a long way to do this.
Author:  codename_47 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Teams would go apeshit if you disabled it at some tracks considering all the stuff they do with setup for it, running extra downforce they know the DRS will relieve them off, gear ratios, etc...

Will start a whole political shitstorm...

But you know, if they all decided to design cars that could actually follow each other through a corner *cough* ground effect *cough* we wouldn't need DRS....
But they'll never stop sucking the Aero teat and some people in F1 have a big thing against ground effect for some reason so DRS is the best we're going to get for the foreseeable future....

At some point someone in F1 will realise there's more to pushing the limits of performance of the cars than just shoving it in a windtunnel and designing a new fancy front wing with 29 different aero bits to channel the air over the car.
But that'll need a massive sea change with both rulemakers and teams in unison and when has that ever happened..?
Author:  kals [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
StefMeister wrote:
However when it either does nothing or works more like intended there is very little (If any) critisism.


Except this couldn't be further from the truth. When it works too well, people bitch. When it doesn't work at all, people bitch. We're all hoping the FIA discovers the happy medium but until then, I'm perfectly happy with it working too well than not at all. I'd rather see more Canada's than Monaco's and Hungary's.
Author:  codename_47 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Lewis Hamilton re-passed Fernando Alonso at Silverstone on old tyres when Alonso had the benefit of DRS....that's really all i have to say on the matter.

I think a lot of the passes people think are "too easy" are either cars that are a lot faster but behind slower cars due to bad qualy or the overtaking driver has the benefit of KERS+DRS together and that exaggerates the boost he's getting.

If I had to change anything, rules wise, I'd just write a rule saying you can't have DRS and KERS activated at the same time (in the race) so the attacker would use DRS and the defender could use his KERS and that might even things out a bit more.

Then I'd write rules solidfying DRS and KERS forever more and that would be that.... :p
Author:  kals [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Amen to that Paul
Author:  Coldtyre [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 7:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
So let's get this straight before the week-end: why is "Raidillon" so under-used compared to "Eau Rouge"?

In french, 'raidillon' means 'steep path' or 'slope'. French-speaking commentators refer to the corner as "raidillon de l'eau rouge" or "raidillon" for short. I guess it's less used by english speakers because it's less english-friendly (pronounced ray-dee-yon)
Digital TV once e-mailed the Williams team a live question about the corner and they called it Raidillon. For me it has always been the natural denomination and I refer to it like that.

So, when Maldonado bins it at the top of the hill, I will yell "crash at the Raidillon" (before you ask, no this was not a huge build-up to a Pastor hate-post :p )
Author:  Omega [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Eau Rouge is the first 2 corners, Raidillon is the top.
Author:  Tobias [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
thing that sucks most about spa is that there is no cool down lap after the race.
Author:  mclaren2008 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
But you get to see them drive the wrong way up pit lane
Author:  phil1993 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
The problem with DRS is it masks the problems the cars still have on some circuits with overtaking. It also continues to amaze me that the FIA still can't work out that hairpin > long straight > hairpin isn't necessarily the best way to create an overtaking spot. You think about the best places to overtake and a lot of them are preceded by a medium speed or fast corner.

For example: Suzuka - Casio Triangle is preceded by 130R; Spa - Les Combes preceded by Eau Rouge, Bus Stop is preceded by Blanchimont.

Where is overtaking difficult? Abu Dhabi? Long straight preceded by a hairpin...

I still think the best idea would be to let the drivers use it wherever they like, after Lap 3. But they get something like 900 seconds worth, like it is in FR3.5. It adds another tactical element to it.
Author:  mclaren2008 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
That's probably why Turkey created so many passing spots because the corner onto the back straight was not too slow and there was a massive kink right in the middle
Author:  ellis [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
phil1993 wrote:
The problem with DRS is it masks the problems the cars still have on some circuits with overtaking. It also continues to amaze me that the FIA still can't work out that hairpin > long straight > hairpin isn't necessarily the best way to create an overtaking spot. You think about the best places to overtake and a lot of them are preceded by a medium speed or fast corner.

For example: Suzuka - Casio Triangle is preceded by 130R; Spa - Les Combes preceded by Eau Rouge, Bus Stop is preceded by Blanchimont.


None of those are actually true corners now though. They are easy flat, and even in the dirty air they mean nothing. A fast corner before a potential overtaking spot is a good way of making a car fall back because of dirty air and struggle to get back in contention. To counter the "fast corner is better" argument, you could point out Montreal, hairpin into a slow chicane for example.
Author:  phil1993 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
mclaren2008 wrote:
That's probably why Turkey created so many passing spots because the corner onto the back straight was not too slow and there was a massive kink right in the middle


Correct. Turkey's S3 and pit straight was ideal for overtaking. T9/T10 was medium speed, which allowed cars to close and then 'Faux Rouge' allowed the driver behind to close up - like when Vettel tried to pass Webber in 2010. This then allows the drivers to take alternative lines through the mickey mouse chicane and onto the pit straight. A slow hairpin by itself just doesn't work.

That's why I'm hoping they haven't cocked it up in Austin by having a hairpin before the long straight.

@
User avatar
Dave - I'm convinced part of the reason for overtaking in Montreal is that strange exit to the hairpin. It isn't like in Hockenheim, they have to jink right and then left. If your tyres are ruined, that will hurt badly.
Author:  mclaren2008 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
Abu Dhabi's hairpin is a ludicrously tight, constant width and radius corner so the advantage of turning in late and cutting back is negated. If they widened the exit up to that armco on the right it would help.

I think the ideal slow corner-straight-slow corner setup involves a decreasing radius hairpin onto the straight and an opening radius corner at the end.
Author:  Tobias [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
if there'd be a long straight after the second degner corner in Suzuka, that would be an excellent passing place. I feel it's one of the easiest corners, but still fast, on the calendar to follow.

Many people used Magny-Cours as an example of how overtaking should not be set up: the long Estoril corner created hardly any passing going into the Adelaide hairpin. That's one of the reasons why track designers chose for hairpin-hairpin being the best possible configuration to set up an overtaking move.
Author:  mclaren2008 [ Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2012 Belgian Formula One Grand Prix - SPA
The off camber corners at Abu Dhabi don't exactly help the situation either, its hard to drive them alone so trying to set someone up for a pass is too hard.

Tobias wrote:
if there'd be a long straight after the second degner corner in Suzuka, that would be an excellent passing place. I feel it's one of the easiest corners, but still fast, on the calendar to follow.

Many people used Magny-Cours as an example of how overtaking should not be set up: the long Estoril corner created hardly any passing going into the Adelaide hairpin. That's one of the reasons why track designers chose for hairpin-hairpin being the best possible configuration to set up an overtaking move.


The reason has to be because Degner 2 is banked the right way

And Magny Cours was bad because the Estoril corner was constant radius and narrowed on exit so only one line was possible
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