TBK-Light.com

I´m not sure whether this is correct a forum but...

In 2009 there was HANS system declared as mandatory in czech rallies. Since then there were some ten crashes which resulted in broken and/or very badly bruised lumbal vertebras. These crashes were minor, we can say. A car only hits in a small speed something with its bottom front and that´s it. Luckily, no one gets paralized. So far...
Drivers got very angry and don´t want to use it as mandatory in events which are not in the international list of FIA (it is mandatory there and declared by FIA).

Are there similar problems (injuries) in other countries? Drivers want to know what causes these injuries and how to prevent them. FAS (a czech version of FIA) don´t want to discuss about this problem and behave like "there is no problem, you just have to pay us for a licence and then we are not interested in you any more"

Here are some photos of my friend´s crash. His codriver suffed a broken vertebra:
http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/show.php?id=137 ... eto-promin!

Here is a video of the crash which resulted in driver´s broken vertebra:
http://www.ewrc.cz/ewrc/show.php?id=139 ... n-okamzite!

Fabia below with the ripped off wheel is from the same event. Its codriver suffered badly bruised vertebras. The doctors said the he was very lucky not to get it broken. He is not slim and it was the thing which saved him.

Do you think that these crashes should result in broken vertebras?! Are there the same result in other countries? This matter is quite important, maybe a court will solve this problem.

Thank you.

Marcel Tiemann suffered a broken cervical vertebra in yesterdays Internation GT Open race at Imola.
He was pushed by another car and hit the unprotected wall at an approx. 45° angle. Can't judge the speed as the field was accelerating from the flying start.

BUT it was not the type of crash where you would expect neck injuries, but it was a hard lick


Tiemanns crash and the footage of the two czech accidents you've posted make me think if there's a problem with HANS in frontal impacts at greater angles where you have "circular" forces as well...

I have seen this video. But he suffered cervical vertebra injuries while here in rally there are lumbal vertebras. Probably caused by frontal and bottom impact where the body gets pressed in the seat and the vertebra cracks

An unprotected barrier at that angle on that location is just plain retarded.

Hot news: Saturday´s accident during another czech rally resulted in another broken vertebra. Scary...
No similar problems abroad? Don´t tell me that the czech drivers have softer bones...

Damn, that's pretty scary!

_________________


Motorsport Lover since 1988
First TBK member to post it with a wiimote

Czech drivers have softer bones. Need to toughen up a bit.

Good to see you have brought it up. Does the HANS device get checked by the scrutineers to ensure that its fitting the driver correctly with the correct seatbelts and seat to make sure it performs as it should. I know they check that its at the right safety standard and has the right safety marks on it but that doesn't mean that everything is installed to work together correctly. Catch me drift?

Well, to be honest, we have to say that this time it must have been quite big crash...
Thes hit a tree at about 80 kph (data taken from GPS device)



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Rossy, you are probably right. They make an unknown mistake which must be detected. The question is - where is the problem? The authorities check the HANS and the other equipment just before the start of the stage to ensure that it is mountened properly with correctly fastened seatbelts and so on. But the serious crashes (or better - minor crashes with serious consequences) continue. That´s why I ask. I don´t believe that only the czechs make these mistakes (if any)...

As the injuries occur in rallyes, can it be that there is some kind of relation to the open face helmets?

Do you know about the different versions of HANS?
special version for very slim people in upright seats
20° for most saloon cars (standard in shops)
30° for most single seaters (standard in shops)
special version for vintage single seaters where you have an extremely reclined seat

Openface helmet would probably cause the head to get out of the helmet. Moreover, I´m almost sure that at least one of the injureds wears integral fullface helmet. There is a theory that the injuries could be caused by the upper seatbelt holes in the seat. If the upper edge of the hole is lower than the shoulders with HANS, during the crash is the HANS compressed down by the seatbelt and harms the vertebra. But I know about the crashes where this problem with holes wasn´t. And this problem is not described in any manual for HANS/seats/seatbelt.
I´m affraid that we are not able to solve the cause here. I just wanted to know if there are similar vertebra injuries abroad... Nowhere?

I don't have a clue and so do all the other forum members.

Did you e-mail the HANS people yet?

You mean HANS producers? No, I don´t think so. Only FAS (czech national motorsport authority) received a petition signed by more than 200 licensed drivers and codrivers who want FAS to aim to this problem and to find out the cause of the injuries. Nobody cared it. The official conclusion is that the injured drivers caused their injuries themselves and HANS device can´t be blaimed. They made this decission while sitting at the table, eatig toasts Retards... All the drivers have correct equipment, seats and seatbelts suitable for HANS.
The bulk of the drivers are realy angry with FAS and big changes are expected. Most of them are talking about defenestration, so we will see...

You mentioned the seat belts were brought up as a possible cause of the broken vertebra. I drive a stock car in the USA and we use the 5 point harnesses that I assume would be used in the rally cars as well. When the shoulder belts come over the shoulders, the belts should come straight back to the mounting point, so that the driver's spine and the belt behind the driver should pretty much form a 90 degree angle. Also about the hole in the back of the seat for the belts to go through - on my car, when the belts are just hanging loose and I am not in the seat, it looks almost like the belts are mounted too high, but when I am sitting in the seat with the seat belts tight, the shoulder belts extend straight back off my shoulders and pass through the hole in the seat without touching any part of the actual seat. The HANS device will add an inch or so to the height of the driver's shoulders, so the mounting point of the seat belts should also be raised an inch or so. Not raising the mounting point would cause the seat belt to come down off the shoulders forcing more of a compression action in the event of an impact.

If you want, I'm sure I could find diagrams and other information. As far as injuries caused by the HANS device in the USA, I have not personally heard of any, although that does not mean it has not happened.

There have been two incidents that I know of at my local Sprint car tracks (Washington, Oregon - U.S.) of broken vertebrae, but it is inconclusive if that was because of the HANS or not. The forces crashing in a sprint car are different than a stock car, but are probably fairly similar to those of rally cars. There are different angles involved, than hitting a wall, when spinning and flipping. None of these drivers who were hurt hit a wall at all. I don't know if the HANS was ever tested for those different forces, or mostly for the more flat forces when a car hits a wall.

In your initial post, you mentioned injuries to the lumbar vertebrae, which would have no direct relationship to the HANS device. Lumbar injuries sound to me more like either some sort of landing (as in, the car was off the ground at some point and came back to earth with significant force), or a significantly reclined seats (similar to IndyCar or Formula 1 vehicles - obviously this isn't the case in rally accidents).

As far as cervical vertebrae injuries, it is possible they are related to the HANS device, it sound to me like the shoulder belt slipped off one half of the HANS. That would allow the head and neck to twist at a strange angle, which wouldn't necessarily be the HANS device's fault. Seat belt manufacturers are starting to design belts that will prevent this, with 3 inch into 2 inch belts (with the 2 inch portion going over the HANS).

Someone mentioned that the shoulder belts should come off the shoulders to the mounting point at 0 degrees. Seat belt manufacturers recommend around a 15 degree angle up from the mounting point to the top of the shoulder (with HANS device on, if the driver wears one).