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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:28 am 
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Just seen the start of Race 2 :8:

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:36 am 
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Gutted for Lawson. He'd been getting quite a bit of press here in NZ.


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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:22 am 
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Just watched the race, fuck how dirty is Sheldon VDL..... and all he gets is a 5 second penalty. Then Merc playing team orders........ so gutted for Liam, he deserved it

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:30 am 
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Wow, looking at comments on social media.... this is really bad PR for the series, there are so many upset people at what happened :8:

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:06 pm 
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Juihi wrote:
Just watched the race, fuck how dirty is Sheldon VDL..... and all he gets is a 5 second penalty. Then Merc playing team orders........ so gutted for Liam, he deserved it


You mean Kelvin, I think...poor Sheldon had an incredibly unlucky weekend. I had a hard time not believing it was Robby Gordon, Scott Pruett or even Jason Plato racing that car. :D

Until he, luckily for all other racing drivers, was taken out of contention by a puncture caused by sideswiping Goetz at full speed.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:40 pm 
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Manufacturer orders has always been a part of DTM though.


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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:37 pm 
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There was an absolutely bonkers DTM finale in early 2000s at the RedBull Ring, thanks to team orders and tactics. It was mostly respectful though, and culminated when Laurent Aiello ended up in the barrier at the final turn, while trying mid-spin to take out the guy who spun him.


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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:32 pm 
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Gaara wrote:
Manufacturer orders has always been a part of DTM though.


I know and I never liked it. I remember that race in Barcelona around 10 years ago when every Mercedes driver, including Mika Hakkinen, became a wrecking ball aiming at anything with four rings on the crest, prompting Audi to retire their cars. And let's not talk about Nannini vs Asch or other dirty stuff during the 90s.

Back to the race at hand, one thing is to let somebody behind you pass without any effort, another is giving up a 10" lead on the last lap to let your team/manufacturer mate win the race.
That's just too blatant for my likes.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:58 pm 
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fede999 wrote:
Gaara wrote:
Manufacturer orders has always been a part of DTM though.


I know and I never liked it. I remember that race in Barcelona around 10 years ago when every Mercedes driver, including Mika Hakkinen, became a wrecking ball aiming at anything with four rings on the crest, prompting Audi to retire their cars. And let's not talk about Nannini vs Asch or other dirty stuff during the 90s.

Back to the race at hand, one thing is to let somebody behind you pass without any effort, another is giving up a 10" lead on the last lap to let your team/manufacturer mate win the race.
That's just too blatant for my likes.


I don't think Audi or Ferrari would have done anything else if they could help giving the title to one of their drivers. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:25 pm 
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Chris79 wrote:
fede999 wrote:
Gaara wrote:
Manufacturer orders has always been a part of DTM though.


I know and I never liked it. I remember that race in Barcelona around 10 years ago when every Mercedes driver, including Mika Hakkinen, became a wrecking ball aiming at anything with four rings on the crest, prompting Audi to retire their cars. And let's not talk about Nannini vs Asch or other dirty stuff during the 90s.

Back to the race at hand, one thing is to let somebody behind you pass without any effort, another is giving up a 10" lead on the last lap to let your team/manufacturer mate win the race.
That's just too blatant for my likes.


I don't think Audi or Ferrari would have done anything else if they could help giving the title to one of their drivers. There is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.


It's not a matter of who did it or who wouldn't have done the same.

Racing (and sport in general) is about earning victory through competition, not having victory handed to you by three or four other competitors who get told to do so by company brass.

Yes, it happens in other series as well (and I remember way worse things happening in WTCC, for example), but it rarely happens that one brand owns and gives orders to a third of the field. You really can't compare this to what Ferrari (or BMW or Lamborghini) would have done with TWO cars, or to other series where there's just one teammate who could influence the results.

I know that having investors/sponsorships dictate racing behavior is an integral part of the sport nowadays and it would be naive to deny it, but this can be done by AT LEAST making the benefitted driver make the effort to be in actual close contention with the cars in front.

Goetz was handed the victory while on his own pace he couldn't have done better than third or fourth, and was more than 10" off the lead with four laps (of the Norisring, mind you) to go.

Maybe it's not possible to avoid it at all thorugh rules, but that's not racing. That's a publicity stunt, and I'm not going to waste my time watching it.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 9:04 pm 
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fede999 wrote:
Juihi wrote:
Just watched the race, fuck how dirty is Sheldon VDL..... and all he gets is a 5 second penalty. Then Merc playing team orders........ so gutted for Liam, he deserved it


You mean Kelvin, I think...poor Sheldon had an incredibly unlucky weekend. I had a hard time not believing it was Robby Gordon, Scott Pruett or even Jason Plato racing that car. :D

Until he, luckily for all other racing drivers, was taken out of contention by a puncture caused by sideswiping Goetz at full speed.


Oh yes, my bad! I meant Kelvin.

But going back to the manufacturer orders, I can't think of many other series which has them this extreme, like I could never imagine them happening in Aussie Supercars, or Indycar etc. So DTM needs to rid itself of that toxic trait

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:23 pm 
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There are number of people who complain about certain drivers.
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I stopped watching DTM full-time few years ago. The series has become a complete joke with all the intentional crashes and team orders. I see they're up to the old tricks again. What a waste of time. They can change the regs and whatever but stuff like this will always turn people off.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:10 pm 
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Gotta say, I agree with Helmut's comments

https://www.velocitynews.co.nz/helmut-m ... KxOn4Vxl5o

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:25 am 
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Hi everyone,

got some DTM videos from the unique DTM Finale - as it probably will never be the final again - at the Norisring.

Some pure sounds from the trackside


and the races from Saturday and Sunday.




I'm really still somewhat stunned what happened there.
Liam Lawson really would have deserved it and my highest respect for that young man. Nil unfair actions when stumbled around getting lapped over and over again. No attempt to take his rivals out of the race or triggering a safety car at the end of the race by parking his wreck somewhere.

I don't know what was going on KVLs' head, because he was driving like a complete nutter. That 5secs were ridiculous, a Stop & Go in my eyes would have been the minimum, even a direct black flag disqualification would have been OK for me. I mean it wasn't just that a**ehole move in corner #1, it was unfair driving until even his rear tire could not take that bullsh*t anymore.

On the other hand however, I am somewhat happy for Maxi Götz. He was born like 80 kilometers west of Nuremberg, he's a member of the organizing local motorsport club and I mean, to win the championship as an absolute underdog in front of your homecrowd which held the finale exceptionally for one time....that is some kind of special.

Of course the way he achieved that leaves a fairly sour taste nonetheless.
Whereas it was the finale and beforehand it was absolutely clear to me, if the situation arises there will doubtlessly be radiocalls "Let XY pass for the championship".
As soon as they announced the penalty I said to my wife next to me "Götz is going to be the champion. If there are only Mercs in front of him, they will let him pass."
And to be honest....no matter if there is a cavallino rampante, a star or four rings on the hood, they all would have made that call in this final race of the season. Therefore that massive outcry everywhere is hardly comprehensible to me, as it was no real surprise.

Just my two cents. Hope you like videos.
Regards
René

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:52 am 
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I know the social rule today is give an apology and nobody can say anything more, but I've got no sympathy for this guy. It's one thing to have a momentary lapse in judgement that results in you saying or doing something unfortunate, but it's another to drive like a complete troll for 2 consecutive races, directly alter the championship and celebrate it in the media afterwards. That will take longer than a weak apology and 'boo hoo I'm being bullied online' PR release to wash away. I'm sure phone call or not Liam feels the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:24 pm 
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There are number of people who complain about certain drivers.
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Liam Lawson says he wants out of DTM after that fiasco and I don't blame him. He's obviously one of the main candidates to step into Alpha Tauri in 2023 so why bother wasting another year with these schmucks? Helmut Marko also said if Red Bull returns then Lawson won't be part of the line-up. DTM has chosen to upset the wrong sponsor and the wrong person indeed. So Lawson will only run in F2 next season.

https://www.motorsport.com/dtm/news/red ... m/6686024/

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:57 pm 
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Sounds a little different from what I read.
Dr. Marko is quoted that Lawson will go for the full F2 season next year, which will probably have numerous schedule conflicts with the DTM and besides that he probably have some Friday rides in F1. Moreover he will drive AlphaTauri in the Young Drivers Test in Abu Dhabi after the F1 season.

Nor a word that this is Lawson's wish not to return categorically next year, neither that Red Bull will end its sponsorship in DTM.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:03 pm 
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If you watch the interview with him on motorsports.com, they maybe have painted it slightly different to how he said it. Will Buxton posed a difficult question to him, so of course he had to say no that he doesn't want to be part of a championship that has what happened going on, but he also said how much he's loved the rest of the season

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:39 am 
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Nice vids! I'd love to go to the Norisring one day, it would be something unique.

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 Post subject: Re: DTM 2021
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:32 pm 
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ITT people are outraged about DTM team orders and driving standards?

Meh, been through all this so many times before, I'm used to it. It is part of the game when the manufacturer stakes are so high. Nothing surprising, and I don't even think KvL's moves were that bad. Race 1 was an honest fight, race 2 was overly aggressive but not that scandalous. Seen worse, in DTM and elsewhere.

DTM has always been like this, even in the glory years. See BMW fixing everything Ravaglia's way in 1989 (even at the season opener!); Audi manipulating the rules in 1990-1991, even having Hubert Haupt wrecking one of the Mercs at Singen; Merc not letting their drivers fight for it in 1992 even though they were miles ahead in the standings.

In a way this is good for DTM. It tells them that for the manufacturers it is still a big deal, not just an afterthought in an oversaturated GT3 market.


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