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| Mind your head - What can be done? https://www.tbk-light.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9384 |
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| Author: | Eddington mains [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Mind your head - What can be done? |
Well its happened again hasnt it?.... Shit this one hits hard for me cause Justin is a Brit, as im sure it affects each and every one of you when its one of your fellow countrymen too.. Anyway, another damned head injury and another loss to the sport, Following Jules recently, a few years ago it was Henry Surtees and im sure people with far better memories than me will recount others who we have lost due to similar "blunt trauma" in a racing car. but what really can be done to offer more protection to drivers? Canopies?.... may as well all drive Le Mans Cars then. Roll hoops? - i did once see a picture of a car with an X shaped bar over the cockpit. Or a cage something akin to the type of thing they sit in in a Top Fuel Dragster? Please dont say its too soon to discuss this... for Justin and others, its too late.. |
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| Author: | iks [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
We know there will never be a 100% perfect solution since racing is inherently dangerous. But, completely closed canopies seems the safest as long as drivers can get out safely. |
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| Author: | SBan83 [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
Canopies are the simplest solution. The only reason you want open cockpit is so you can see the driver's hands working the wheel but since a long time since the raised sides, you can't see anything anyway. Besides, with a canopy, perhaps you can lower the sides again so you can see more of the driver at work again? |
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| Author: | Chris D [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
The difficulty with canopies is ensuring a fast driver extraction in an accident. If one could be designed to accompany that, it'd be a good solution. However, a raised windscreen, similar to what was seen in the late '80s in IndyCar racing, might be a good idea to look at. |
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| Author: | the ost [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
Canopies make sense but they aren't simple to implement. Open wheel cars are designed with the idea that some part of the driver is exposed. It changes the way the car is built from the ground up. The other thing we are seeing is the negative aspect of the cars "dispersing energy" in accidents. For a long time we only thought of the good things this did in the accident, taking the impact away from the drivers. But now we are beginning to understand that the debris field this creates has deadly consequences. |
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| Author: | Cheeveer [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
Eddington mains wrote: Canopies?.... may as well all drive Le Mans Cars then. I don't see that as a bad thing at all. Today's LMP1 cars are spaceships, and their style of canopies would not at all look out of place at Monaco or at Indianapolis. And they are almost open-wheelers as it is:  Another way is to go "convertible":  In any way, it is time to get proactive, not reactive. That is not enough. |
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| Author: | micha [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
How many open wheel races are there each weekend? And how many get killed because of something like this? |
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| Author: | Cheeveer [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
micha wrote: How many open wheel races are there each weekend? And how many get killed because of something like this? It is by far the biggest hazard with open-wheel racing, at least at pro level. It is time to be proactive now. I'm of the opinion that while race tracks can be neutered by the safety crusade, the cars can never be "too safe". |
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| Author: | Ian-S [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
I hate to sound harsh but micha is right, there are thousands of open wheel races each weekend so this kind of accident is very rare, it is a shame and very sad for Justin's family, but like every other driver, he knew the risks and was happy to take them. However, a good short term fix would be to tether all the big pieces that can fly off cars, NASCAR have tethers on the hood and deck lids so there's no reason why Indycars can't add one to the nose and other bodywork, it might stop this, although it may also introduce numerous other problems. |
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| Author: | Fish88 [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
The X1 solution by Newey (only the cockpit not the whole car) didn't looked that bad.  I don't think they should haste any kinda solution, but they should definitly look into the possibilities. There is a great article about that discussion on racecar engineering. http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... its-to-f1/ |
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| Author: | JJ [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
micha wrote: How many open wheel races are there each weekend? And how many get killed because of something like this? You're right that most fatal accidents are caused by something else than lack of canopy. For example, I don't like that Bianchi's accident is deliberately brought to the discussion as if canopy would have prevented his death. No, it wouldn't have. Actually in the history of Formula 1, Indycar, CART or lower open-wheel series there aren't many fatalities relating to open-cockpit design. From that point of view it's quite trivial problem. Obviously after recent events it's easy to see open cockpit as a sign of death and imagine similar accidents happen every time cars are on the track. Statistically there should be no reason why open-cockpit accidents should have become more common. Or is there some trend and a reason for that? Anyway, no knee-jerk reaction should be done, but analyze the pros and cons of closed cockpits. It would be important to see canopies in action and new FIA Fromula 2 would be an ideal category for that. After we have enough data from different types of accidents like fire and rollovers we can conclude whether canopies really increase overall safety or not. |
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| Author: | Cheeveer [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
Ian-S wrote: I hate to sound harsh but micha is right, there are thousands of open wheel races each weekend so this kind of accident is very rare, it is a shame and very sad for Justin's family, but like every other driver, he knew the risks and was happy to take them. However, a good short term fix would be to tether all the big pieces that can fly off cars, NASCAR have tethers on the hood and deck lids so there's no reason why Indycars can't add one to the nose and other bodywork, it might stop this, although it may also introduce numerous other problems. If that can be made effectively, then why not? But it wouldn't help in a Coulthard-Wurz, Grosjean-Alonso, Bourdais-Newgarden scenario, or even in da Matta's or Massa's case. |
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| Author: | cookie [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
My solution would be a rollhoop that goes around the top of the helmet just above the visor. It would be attached to the cars rollhoop and put in place after the driver is in the car, like the headrest in an F1 car. No need for full closed canopies. I wanted to draw it but don't have time now. In Wilson's case it would have deflected the piece. Only smaller pieces would still be dangerous to hit the helmet. But smaller pieces would not do as much damage anyway. |
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| Author: | micha [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
cookie wrote: My solution would be a rollhoop that goes around the top of the helmet just above the visor. It would be attached to the cars rollhoop and put in place after the driver is in the car, like the headrest in an F1 car. No need for full closed canopies. I wanted to draw it but don't have time now. In Wilson's case it would have deflected the piece. Only smaller pieces would still be dangerous to hit the helmet. But smaller pieces would not do as much damage anyway. It will limit their view even further. |
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| Author: | cookie [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
It would be close to the helmet above the visor, should have no impact on viewing. |
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| Author: | micha [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
So floating and not attached to the front of the car? So under the wrong circumstances it can be pushed in and crush the driver. |
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| Author: | Shaddix [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
JJ wrote: You're right that most fatal accidents are caused by something else than lack of canopy. For example, I don't like that Bianchi's accident is deliberately brought to the discussion as if canopy would have prevented his death. No, it wouldn't have. Actually in the history of Formula 1, Indycar, CART or lower open-wheel series there aren't many fatalities relating to open-cockpit design. From that point of view it's quite trivial problem. You can't say that it would not have saved his life. Do not underestimate the canopies that jet fighters use. Even if it would break, the breaking would have absorbed a lot of the energy that has hit his head. It's pretty likely that Henry Surtees would have lived if he had a canopy. Dan Wheldon might have stood a better chance. And we were pretty close to saying that Massa could have died because of that spring. JJ wrote: Obviously after recent events it's easy to see open cockpit as a sign of death and imagine similar accidents happen every time cars are on the track. Statistically there should be no reason why open-cockpit accidents should have become more common. Or is there some trend and a reason for that? It's not because there aren't 10 drivers dying each year that there shouldn't be any action taken. |
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| Author: | cookie [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
micha wrote: So floating and not attached to the front of the car? So under the wrong circumstances it can be pushed in and crush the driver. When has a normal rollhoop crushed a driver? I am no engineer but it should be possible. |
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| Author: | micha [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
a rollhoop is designed that the head is always clear when the car is upside down. This is because the line between the front of the cockpit and the rollhoop is above the drivers helmet. In what you described there is a extension of the rollhoop hanging over the drivers head. As you described it it's not attached at the bottom thus free to move either up or down. Down is where the driver is. |
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| Author: | Gaara [ Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Mind your head - What can be done? |
A canopy would have saved De Vilota for sure. That would have take the impact rather then the driver herself. Wheldon's only injuried was that blow to the head, the canopy would have taken the hit first, thus taking most of the energy. The traditionalists will bitch and moan but truth is, cockpits have been closing up over the last 25 years so why not make that last move. It's an unnecessary risk to leave the drivers head exposed like that. He have had too many near misses. |
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