2014 Grand Prix du Canada

Reece · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:13 am

Sure Massa was probably too close but at the end of the day if Perez had not borked left like he did then it would have been a run of the mill clean pass. It was the actions of Perez which caused the accident and the penalty is completely justified.

webbsy · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:30 am

The most amazing thing about that accident to me is the fact that the onboard cameras survived!

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:44 am

coldtyre wrote:

kals wrote:

When I saw the onboard replay from Perez, he appeared to take a straighter line towards T1. That has been pretty normal at this race and circuit over many years. Perez did not make a sudden jerking movement towards Massa or another part of the circuit, which is consistent with changing lanes while in the braking zone.

Perez is having braking issues but is holding / defending 3rd place on the last lap. It appeared to me more that Massa tried a mistimed do or die move and wiped them both out in the process.

@

RtN - Felipe didn't just turn right but took a big tug toward the right. There was no progressive movement in the steering wheel that is consistent with that curve.

Are we all watching the same helicam video?
Perez started turning right at the same time as Massa, to follow the track curvature. The reason why Massa's input to the right seems sharper, is that his car was slightly facing left (he was changing lanes, remember) so he had to bring it back to be parallel to the track again after the kink.
At this stage, both drivers inputs are putting them each on his lane, following the track line, not on a collision course. The FI has a predictable line that Massa based his line onto.

Then, while both cars are in the process of turning right to stay parallel to the track line, Perez jerks it back to the left and that's what caused the contact.

You keep putting the blame on Massa without saying whet he should have done instead. Because just reacting to that was not humanly possible.

Clearly we are not watching the same helicam and clearly one person is not allowed a different opinion than another.

You keep blaming Perez but as I'd said previously (and was ignored by a couple of others), the actions you describe and resultant consequences work exactly the same the other way around.

Perez didn't jerk left. Watch the onboard replay and his steering movements. What he did do was slightly relax the steering angle so he had a straighter projectory toward T1. Pretty normal in the circumstance considering he was on the last lap and defending a position.

cookie · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:17 pm

Maybe we should have a SC fase at every start of a GP? I think the fuel saved during that period gave us the great racing in the race. Everyone was flat out all the time

asshat · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:44 pm

Maybe we should remove the MGU-K from the mercedes?

asshat · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:47 pm

I agree with Kals

Watch this video click the gear in the bottom left and slow it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObcBrAe-ro

Massa make much more of a jink right than Perez does left.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:51 pm

kals wrote:

You keep blaming Perez but as I'd said previously (and was ignored by a couple of others), the actions you describe and resultant consequences work exactly the same the other way around.

I'm interested to know what should Massa have done instead of taking that line of his? I may have missed it in one of your posts, sorry if that's the case.

What people are saying here is that if Perez kept his line, which is the behaviour commonly expected from battling drivers in a braking zone, it would have been a clean pass. What is your counter-suggestion as to what Massa should have reasonably done, Perez' actions being the same?
Cutting across the track to be much further inside and giving the outside driver more space to breathe is clearly not an option, because that's not racing. Nobody does that. Most passes are completed by following a path parallel to the racing line, next to the driver you're racing. Which Massa did.

Yes, it's ok to have diferent opinions about an accident. But it shouldn't rely on excusing behaviour like changing the line in a braking zone to block someone having a run on you, which is something largely frowned upon by the whole racing community. Precisely because it ends up in very bad crashes like this one.

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:53 pm

coldtyre wrote:

kals wrote:

You keep blaming Perez but as I'd said previously (and was ignored by a couple of others), the actions you describe and resultant consequences work exactly the same the other way around.

I'm interested to know what should Massa have done instead of taking that line of his? I may have missed it in one of your posts, sorry if that's the case.

What people are saying here is that if Perez kept his line, which is the behaviour commonly expected from battling drivers in a braking zone, it would have been a clean pass. What is your counter-suggestion as to what Massa should have reasonably done, Perez' actions being the same?
Cutting across the track to be much further inside and giving the outside driver more space to breathe is clearly not an option, because that's not racing. Nobody does that. Most passes are completed by following a path parallel to the racing line, next to the driver you're racing. Which Massa did.

Yes, it's ok to have diferent opinions about an accident. But it shouldn't rely on excusing behaviour like changing the line in a braking zone to block someone, which is something largely frowned upon by the whole racing community.

Turn it around Coldtyre. What if Massa hadn't had jerked his steering wheel to the right just prior to the impact? The answer is, the accident wouldn't have happened. Massa's steering inputs were irregular for the line he was on and were a contributor to the accident. Simple as that.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:59 pm

In my previous post I explained that his jerking right only brought him back to a path parallel to the trackside, while still leaving 2 car widths for Perez on his right side.

That jerking right didn't put him in another car's lane, while Perez' did. by lanes I mean virtual corridors following the racing line and the track layout.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:02 pm

Your analysis is very flawed kals, because you could turn around anything using that logic, nad blame victims for running into the mad guy's path!!!

It's like saying that if the driver didn't take off at the green light, he wouldn't have been hit by the red light runner.

Of course he wouldn't have. But he still did everything by the book and the accident responsibility is still on the red light runner.

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:50 pm

You're clutching at straws now coldtyre. It takes two to tango. The fact that you disagree with me doesn't make me wrong or my analysis flawed.

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:51 pm

asshat wrote:

I agree with Kals

Watch this video click the gear in the bottom left and slow it down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BObcBrAe-ro

Massa make much more of a jink right than Perez does left.

Thank you

I know I'm in a minority but I also know I wouldn't be the only person to have seen this.

De Cesaris fan · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:35 pm

If you're the defending car, it's absolutely inexcusable to change your line in the braking zone, however little. It's one thing if Massa screws up and drives into him, but as soon as Perez makes the slightest change of line in the braking zone, then I blame him 100%.

I think Perez is a really good driver who was unfairly dumped by McLaren, but unfortunately I've seen him make a few of these questionable blocks.

I won't say I agree with the stewards all the time because they make some horrific calls (JPM and Schumacher at Malaysia). However, I think/hope they looked at Perez's line through that corner from every other lap. I can only assume it was different on that final lap.

JJ · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:38 pm

I say the collision was a racing incident. These things sometimes happen (remarkably rarely) and it only requires a tiny misinterpretation by either or both drivers that otherwise clean pass leads to a collision.

If this wasn't a racing incident, then how it should be different in order to be racing incident? If they had driven side-by-side 500 meters and then the tyres would have touched, one can still ask who turned the wheel and caused the collision. So, in hindsight one can always find a way the collision could have been avoided (unless caused by a mechanical failure). But realistically speaking, there's so little time to react that I doubt Massa or Perez even anticipated there would be a risk of crash: Accidents happen - well - accidentally.
So, yes, theoretically either Massa or Perez is more to blame for the contact, but was the collision imminent and did they drive recklessly? Nah.

De Cesaris fan · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:41 pm

I also think it's harsh to say Massa is useless and should have breezed by the cars in front. Sure, he's not the best overtaker, but everyone ahead of him had DRS as well. It wasn't ever going to be an easy drive by. Unfortunately he failed to use DRS the one time he could have passed Vettel.

Fish88 · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:47 pm

De Cesaris fan wrote:

It wasn't ever going to be an easy drive by. Unfortunately he failed to use DRS the one time he could have passed Vettel.

TBH that mistake cost him the win.

Justin Time · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:48 pm

I think with this picture we can finally put the discussion to rest.

http://imgur.com/WRTu05L

Fabs · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 4:48 pm

Scotty wrote:

Are Ferrari going to pull a trigger of some sort and do something about their incredibly mediocre season? 3 times less points than Mercedes, 1.5 times less points than Red Bull, and are only keeping their heads above water from the likes of McLaren, Williams and FI.

2015 bitches

kals · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:09 pm

Justin Time wrote:

I think with this picture we can finally put the discussion to rest.

http://imgur.com/WRTu05L

You'd think so, but...

Between frame #5 to #6 the reason Perez is turning to the left is because he and Massa have made contact. He's not turning to the left, he's being turned to the left. Frame #6 and onward are almost irrelevant because they are a consequence of #5.

RtN · PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 5:09 pm

Fabs wrote:

Scotty wrote:

Are Ferrari going to pull a trigger of some sort and do something about their incredibly mediocre season? 3 times less points than Mercedes, 1.5 times less points than Red Bull, and are only keeping their heads above water from the likes of McLaren, Williams and FI.

2015 bitches

Yes, Ferrari will be everyone's bitch by then.

They seemed to pin all their hopes and effort on persuading Newey to join, which was never on as Newey will never live in Italy. Plan B is non-existent.

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2014 Grand Prix du Canada

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