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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:03 pm 
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ellis wrote:
De Cesaris fan wrote:
True, but I'd guess the Red Bull was still very good in the corners, whereas the Toro Rosso should have been the easier car to pass.


Well no. It was a train formed behind a Toro Rosso. They're all doing Toro Rosso speed, even the Mercedes. The Red Bull being slowest in the straight line of the train should've been the easiest to pass.

Neither Rosberg or Lewis have a problem with passing. They both struggled at the same point in the race, and both were fine at other points.

codename_47 wrote:
While it doesn't have much baring on races like todays, they could easily have done a full Red Bull/Ferrari on this championship and told one driver to support the other and we'd all be decrying how shitty it was, even if the battle for third every race was great.
(2011, 2013 style)


Well that's just silly. Like Red Bull should've equally supported Webber at the point where he has half the points of his team mate. Or Ferrari should've supported Massa equally whilst he had so little points that if you gave away all of his points to Alonsos rivals, Alonso would still be winning the title. Mercedes are supporting both drivers because they have to because it's their fight. If Lewis was miles ahead of Rosberg and fighting a non-Mercedes for the title, to suggest Lews and Rosberg would have equality is just completely delusional.


With respect, that's not the point Ellis. They hired 2 strong drivers in the first place, and while Rosberg was more of an unknown quantity I don't doubt that anyone at Mercedes thought he could get the job done given a half decent car.
So going into this season in all likelyhood knowing they'd dominate and knowing they have 2 potential champions in the car and they let them race.
Ferrari/Red Bull's entire philosophy (well, we'll see about Red Bull if they get back on the horse next year and if they let Danny fight it out with Sebass properly...assuming they're still together ;) ) is to not hire 2 high performing drivers in the first place and make sure the guys know who is going for the title and who is playing a supporting role.
And of course if Red Bull/Ferrari/Williams ended up having anything for them this season, I imagine that would change, but for the moment they're not favouring one driver or the other (despite what the conspiracy theories would have you believe. Slow pit stops/more unreliability for Hamilton notwithstanding ) and for that we should be immensely thankful.

To surmise: if this season had Ferrari with the compettitive advantage over everyone else, do we really think they'd let Alonso and a (presumably more motivated) Kimi battle wheel to wheel like Mercedes have been?
Or would it be more Citroen WTCC?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:16 pm 
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that's why we need a stronger Ferrari, but they aren't helping

about Red Bull, they'll stop favouring drivers when Helmut Marko leaves.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:02 am 
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But who would Marko favour between his two prodigal sons Vettel and Ricciardo?

Man, what a shitty 3000th post.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:16 am 
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The way it's going this season Danny will answer that question for him without too much effort.

Though if you believe the rumour mill (lol) Vettel won't be there (or at least have signed for someone else for 2016 so make it obvious who to focus on to prevent him taking the number 1 elsewhere) so it won't really matter.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:46 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
With respect, that's not the point Ellis. They hired 2 strong drivers in the first place, and while Rosberg was more of an unknown quantity I don't doubt that anyone at Mercedes thought he could get the job done given a half decent car. ?


With respect, it is 100% the point. You can't sit and give credit to Mercedes for letting them race, whilst criticising Ferrari and Red Bull, because Ferrari and Red Bull never had this situation. They never had both of their drivers miles in front, fighting between themselves for a title, with nobody else in sight. The only situation even remotely close was 2010, but even then Red bull could've lost the title to Ferrari, and IIRC, didn't even lead the championship until the final round. Comparing what Mercedes is doing now to what others have done in the past doesn't work at all because of the completely different circumstances.

And tbh, the line "they hired 2 strong drivers" is a bit of an insult to Webber frankly. Like Red Bull hired him for being shit or something. Arguably, Webbers hiring and subsequent years at Red Bull show how much faith Red Bull had in him given how quickly they rotate through there own drivers. He was an outsider that they kept in a top car, even during some rough times. And then you go on to say that the entire policy of Ferrari and RBR is to hire 1 poor driver...really? Because I think hiring 2 world champions shows your intentions, even if one has had a rubbish year. I think picking your strongest possible driver to go beside your world champion shows your intentions. Seems this "philosophy" doesn't really apply this year, and has never applied to Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:52 am 
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webbsy wrote:
In regards to the safety car, it is there for as the name suggests....SAFETY. It is NOT about equality or FAIRNESS. How fucking ridiculous is it to deploy the thing but only when it conveniently picks up the leader and overlooks its stated purpose for up to a lap?

Well, once the SC sign is on, all drivers just slow to a crawl because overtaking is not allowed and they know they will end up bunched up anyway. So the safety purpose is achieved even before the car is physically on track.

Kinda agree with you on lapped cars, but even before the almost-lapped cars between the SC and the leader were always allowed to get their lap back until the leader is behind SC. You could argue that was unfair to drivers that have just been lapped by the leader, and end up one lap behind their direct opponent in the race.
However, the American (understand: neuronless) part of my brain wants THE BIG SHOW, so get those backmarkers out of my view thx :p


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:56 am 
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Wasn't the reason for lapped cars going around for safety anyway? With them mid-pack, or even front pack, they were just in the way. You could cycle them to the back but then you're risking having cars getting in the wrong order. Sending them round was the easiest way of getting them out of the way.

Whilst the SC is about safety, I'm not sure I like the randomness of it. At Hungary, the top 4 had already passed the pit lane entry when it came out, thus meaning they got screwed. Now whilst the SC is indeed about safety, should an attempt not be made to make sure it doesn't randomly jumble the race up? Would it be so hard to keep the pit lane entry closed for a lap?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:09 pm 
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ellis wrote:
Would it be so hard to keep the pit lane entry closed for a lap?

they did that a couple of years ago and it didn't work out. But that was in refuelling days and some cars needed to pit that lap or risk running dry.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:47 pm 
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I thought the lap delta was supposed to avoid people being disadvantaged by the SC coming out? Or did they scrap that?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:54 pm 
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They still have lap deltas, but it didn't work in Hungary. The reason the top 4 lost spots was because the safety car came out after they had passed the pit lane entrance so couldn't put, but 5th place could. The SC then immediately picked them up at turn 1 and everybody else pitted, then cruised up behind them, and they pitted and lost a bunch of spots.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:29 pm 
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It is good and bad. On the one hand the top 4 were compromised but on the other hand it created a great race as a result. It is part of racing. That happened at the previous weekend's Indycar race at Toronto and aided Mike Conway's win. I don't remember any of us complaining about how Conway won, nor suggesting the leaders were compromised by the SC / yellow flag which flew just after Conway had switched to slick tyres. And in Indycar they do exactly as you suggest, which is close the pitlane when the SC comes out. But what Conway's win proves is that that system is also not fautless.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:31 pm 
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It's a tricky one to get right, the only way they can get rid of the problem is if the safety car were to come out around the pit lane entry which is probably too dangerous.

Also, I was shocked when I saw Perez and Gutierrez race out of the pit lane under safety car conditions all the way through turn 1 after the Caterham crashed. Very surprised neither of them got a penalty. That being said, I'm very happy the stewards have been easier on drivers giving out way less penalties than they used to.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:41 pm 
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kals wrote:
It is good and bad. On the one hand the top 4 were compromised but on the other hand it created a great race as a result. It is part of racing. That happened at the previous weekend's Indycar race at Toronto and aided Mike Conway's win. I don't remember any of us complaining about how Conway won, nor suggesting the leaders were compromised by the SC / yellow flag which flew just after Conway had switched to slick tyres. And in Indycar they do exactly as you suggest, which is close the pitlane when the SC comes out. But what Conway's win proves is that that system is also not fautless.


There is no 100% fair way of handling it though, whatever system you use, at some point the circumstances of a race will mean it's unfair on one group of cars over another...

I'm still much more in favour of the 2008 era of pit rules (Ie: close the damn pits) because it's much safer for the marshals.
The only way to stop the teams pushing every last micron out of whatever rules in place is to take the competitive element (them racing round to the pit lane under SC ) is to remove that element completely.
F1 fans get on their high horse and act like the gap a leader has built up is sacrosanct but TBH the marshals are hard worked and under paid enough, if it's safer for them to have the pit lane closed under SC so everyone backs off immediately instead of racing round to the line and they can then get to dealing with the incident quicker, then get over it leader. If you're the leader, you're the leader for a reason so you should have no problem establishing your lead again.

That way you wouldn't have issues like Hungary or Melbourne 2012 when the Mclarens were dominating but Vettel still managed to squeak by Lewis when the SC came out despite being under the delta time.

Racing shouldn't just be about who can lay out a pre-race plan and follow it meticulously, it should also require an adaption element, who can improvise the best plan around the many changing circumstances and think their way through the race better than the rest.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:29 am 
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Problem with closing the pits is that then all cars come in at once and we get dangerous situations in pitlane. F1 has too many people working on the car to keep it safe that way. And the teams can only service 1 car at a time, so we get 2 cars lined up in 1 pitbox which makes it even more narrow in pitlane. Not even speaking of the airhoses permanently hanging there. In Indycar there are only 5 people working on the car and the airhoses get tossed out of the way. There's more space there to have everyone pit at once.

The 4 leaders didn't have to pit during the first safety car if they wanted to keep track position. They could have pitted a few laps later, rejoined on an empty track and put in some qualifying laps. That way Rosberg probably would have won the race. But teams are not imaginative enough with strategies, they just do what the rest is doing.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:57 am 
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cookie wrote:
The 4 leaders didn't have to pit during the first safety car if they wanted to keep track position. They could have pitted a few laps later, rejoined on an empty track and put in some qualifying laps. That way Rosberg probably would have won the race.


That would have left Rosberg on intermediates with those behind him on slicks, he would have had to come in within a few laps anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:57 am 
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Philthy82 wrote:
cookie wrote:
The 4 leaders didn't have to pit during the first safety car if they wanted to keep track position. They could have pitted a few laps later, rejoined on an empty track and put in some qualifying laps. That way Rosberg probably would have won the race.


That would have left Rosberg on intermediates with those behind him on slicks, he would have had to come in within a few laps anyway.


Yes, but that would have given him a clear track to put in some very fast laps. See what he did at the end of the race. when he had fresh tyres and a clear track.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:19 pm 
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You won't do fast laps on old inters on a dry track. You'd do half a fast lap, then get overtaken with ease..


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:27 pm 
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Jenson's performance immediately after the first safety car shows how bad an idea it would have been for Nico to stay out. Jenson had new inters, jumped in to the lead but was overhauled by Ricciardo within a couple of laps.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Plus Nico's position wasn't actually that bad after the SC. 4th iirc? The problem wasn't so much his position, it was more the fact that neither Mercedes was working very well in traffic.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:03 pm 
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ellis wrote:
You won't do fast laps on old inters on a dry track. You'd do half a fast lap, then get overtaken with ease..


I mean fast laps on slicks at the tail end of the field if he had pitted when Button pitted.


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