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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:06 pm 
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James B wrote:
Think this us well-argued: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863. Jolyon's a much better columnist than driver


I disagree. Ignoring who the writer is, his point isn't very well argued. The black and white flag was used correctly in the circumstance. In fact it should be used much more than it has been.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:57 pm 
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What is the natural follow-up to a black and white flag? It used to be a black flag, but that was before time penalties.

If the escalation is: B/W flag, followed by a time penalty, then it's become a bullshit flag. They normally hand time penalties directly for minor contact offences without any warning.

More generally, time penalties are a disgrace because they keep the car on track and it can either further disrupt someone's race, or it can make it worth doing something illegal. Several times it's worth passing someone with a shortcut, then escaping more than 5-10 seconds in the distance and you're basically scott-free.

The only system to keep it real is: warning (B/W) for minor offences, and if another minor offence occurs then it's a drive-through or a stop/go or anything that removes the offender physically from the track position. Obviously for major offences you get pits or BF directly.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:07 pm 
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I still believe that penalties should be applied in situations that have contact and the offender gets advantage

If they do this kind of stuff like chopping, steering under braking and similar stuff then they must give penalty points like they do. way better than changing the result of races by inconsistency

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:22 pm 
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kals wrote:
James B wrote:
Think this us well-argued: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863. Jolyon's a much better columnist than driver


I disagree. Ignoring who the writer is, his point isn't very well argued. The black and white flag was used correctly in the circumstance. In fact it should be used much more than it has been.



So should Verstappen be punished at Austria. And Vettel shouldn't at Canada. Finally once Ferrari is the one doing and not the victim. A well earned break.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Soul Reaver wrote:
kals wrote:
James B wrote:
Think this us well-argued: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863. Jolyon's a much better columnist than driver


I disagree. Ignoring who the writer is, his point isn't very well argued. The black and white flag was used correctly in the circumstance. In fact it should be used much more than it has been.



So should Verstappen be punished at Austria. And Vettel shouldn't at Canada. Finally once Ferrari is the one doing and not the victim. A well earned break.


Vettel shouldn't have been punished in Canada but I understand why he was. Verstappen was dealt with correctly in Austria which was probably a direct result of the fall out from Canada. The black and white flag has always been available for stewards to use as a warning for 'unsportsmanlike conduct' yet typically what we see is either an immediate penalty for a transgression or nothing. Instead of creating a new rule around acceptable racing / on-track conduct, it is good to see FIA / race stewards use the tools they already have available to them.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:09 pm 
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James B wrote:
Think this us well-argued: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863. Jolyon's a much better columnist than driver


I think this is poorly-argued frankly. Quite cherry-picked also.

Quote:
Leclerc moved to the right while he was braking and forced Hamilton off the road. Hamilton couldn't do anything about it, other than to crash with Leclerc or to go off and cut the corner, as he was already on the limit of the brakes and couldn't back out from alongside the Ferrari man. Nor should he have had to.


As much as all this is true, this is much easier typed than driven.

Spoiler:
Palmer should know this by himself and his much more clear abuse


Quote:
Last year, Red Bull's Max Verstappen was penalised five seconds for an almost identical infringement on Mercedes' Valtteri Bottas at turn one in Monza, and it cost the Dutchman a podium.


We can cherry-pick an incident from last year. But we can cherry-pick Verstappen barging Leclerc in Austria, which happened after all the fallout from Canada and the changes on the bias of the stewards, which is a more adequate comparison if we are going to talk about consistency.

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He said the revival of the black-and-white warning flag was a new measure brought in at the request of the teams and drivers to allow for harder racing.

But what precedent does this now set?

It means drivers are potentially allowed to commit one offence in a race and get away with it. What sort of racing is that going to produce? And how is that ethical or fair?


This precedent will only be set if the black and white flag is poorly used. Vettel and Stroll had their dangerous moments and they didn't have black and white flags, nor Albon which had a much less serious offence than these two.

I don't think this resource means drivers have one shot for dirty driving. If a driver makes a blatant violation of the rules, the penalties are there. The black and white flag suits perfectly for these borderline incidents in which you don't want the driver to keep in the borderline.

Quote:
In isolation I probably could see this being allowed, as the curved nature of the 'straight' blurs the lines somewhat. But with the backdrop of the black-and-white flag already deployed, this was potentially a second offence that could have seen a red.


I might be wrong, but as scary as this defence was, it wasn't even an offence as Hamilton was still totally behind Leclerc.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:36 am 
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Is there a definition in the rules on how close the following car has to be for a car changing lanes to be considered blocking, rather than for instance just breaking the slipstream?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:06 pm 
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I guess the driver ahead just assume the car behind is fast enough to attempt a pass and chose their lines before braking zone, assuming there is a long straightway. Must be all played by common sense, if you don't have you might end like those crashes in the braking zone like the one involving the Red Bulls at Baku, or the Red Bulls at Istanbul

also if you choose the inside line you must be aware that your cornering will be slower so must work to have a better way out

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:35 pm 
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Philthy82 wrote:
Is there a definition in the rules on how close the following car has to be for a car changing lanes to be considered blocking, rather than for instance just breaking the slipstream?


Not specifically. It's a real rabbit hole, but Article 2 of the F1 Sporting Regulations states that competitors must undertake to observe "all the provisions as
supplemented or amended of the International Sporting Code (the Code)".

Article 2 (b) in Chapter IV (Code of Driving Conduct on Circuits) in Appendix L of the International Sporting Code says:

FIA wrote:
Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be carried out on either the right or the left.

A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.

More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted.

Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position offline, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.


However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited. Any driver who appears guilty of any of the above offences will be reported to the Stewards.


I would argue that this actually covers many of the moves discussed here, and that the rule - despite being pretty clearly written - isn't enforced very often at all, which leads to drivers coming up with their own interpretation. Oh, and speaking of lax application, the very next clause:

FIA wrote:
Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt, the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.


Coldtyre wrote:
What is the natural follow-up to a black and white flag? It used to be a black flag, but that was before time penalties.


It's literally a one-off warning to the driver, which is obviously less ambigious than anything the team might tell them.

FIA wrote:
This flag should be shown once only and is a warning to the driver concerned that he has been reported for unsportsmanlike behaviour. These last three flags (in d, e and f) should be shown motionless and accompanied by a black board with a white number which should be shown to the driver whose car’s number is displayed.

The flag and number may be combined on a single board. These flags may also be displayed at places other than the start line should the Clerk of the Course deem this necessary.

Normally, the decision to show the last two flags (in e and f) rests with the Clerk of the Course; however, it may be taken by the Stewards, provided that this is stipulated in the supplementary or championship regulations. The team concerned will immediately be informed of the decision.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:09 pm 
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I dont even know why they allow the driver ahead to move back towards the racing line at all.

If I wrote the rule it would be "make one move to defend you position (though If the car attacking you is already alongside this is prohibited), then no further deviation from this position is legal. Choose your line and stick to it"

Allowing someone to defend to the inside then come back to try and take the racing line is allowing them to have their cake and eat it and is basically allowing 2 blocks while not wording it that way.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Well said, Paul.


The way some drivers, especially Magnussen and Verstappen exploit this "loophole" is their sharp fake 2nd line change or movement towards the racing line. That's playing mind games with the driver who's trying to make the pass, trusting on his instincts to kick in and making them to back off. It works now, but once these drivers adjust their driving "knowing" that this driver is doing the bluff, they don't back down anymore. They will keep their line and pedal on the metal. And they will do so even when driver in front is dodging an obstacle on track that just happens to be in the blind spot for the second driver.

A recipe for disaster is ready. Or if you want to have a more likely scenario, the fake move is not fake after all and then there's unavoidable collision. The rule should be clear.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:00 pm 
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This year we also had Gasly retiring in Germany because of a similar chop from Albon, in a much slower speed thankfully.

Talking about Leclerc, we can see how this is becoming the norm - he did this move to fend Hamilton off this time; Last year he nearly got serious accident twice because of two moves like these from Magnussen (Azerbaijan and Japan).


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:42 am 
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There's not much point debating anything other than the rules and how the stewards enforce them. The stewards' lack of action on Verstappen's move on Leclerc in Austria is why Leclerc is racing the way he is now. Hamilton's already said he's going to change how he races after Leclerc's moves on him at Monza weren't penalised. By the end of the season there won't be a 'clean' driver in the field.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:45 am 
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Holy crap you guys talk a lot.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:53 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
I dont even know why they allow the driver ahead to move back towards the racing line at all.

If I wrote the rule it would be "make one move to defend you position (though If the car attacking you is already alongside this is prohibited), then no further deviation from this position is legal. Choose your line and stick to it"

Allowing someone to defend to the inside then come back to try and take the racing line is allowing them to have their cake and eat it and is basically allowing 2 blocks while not wording it that way.


You seriously want to end up with horse shit like this???? Good God, if F1 doesn't have enough problems.



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:59 am 
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Scotty wrote:
We live sad lives and don't have much else to talk about.

Fair enough. I always like how theres a lot of talk on the general F1 discussion tread for the first pages, then I stop for a couple of days and I'm 5 pages behing, of deep posts, sometimes just the same arguments over and over. I wish I could follow it all. But I don't have patience to read.


Hmmm, I seee :excited: The solution....

Make it into and auto-compilated audiobook, giving a proper eletronic voice for each member. The arguments would sound so more dramatic.

Just need something to convert each page to only show the Author of each message and the message themselves. Cause all other stuff get's copied as-well when you copy pasted it into one of those Text to MP3 files.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 am 
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Or

get a life :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:49 am 
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webbsy wrote:
codename_47 wrote:
I dont even know why they allow the driver ahead to move back towards the racing line at all.

If I wrote the rule it would be "make one move to defend you position (though If the car attacking you is already alongside this is prohibited), then no further deviation from this position is legal. Choose your line and stick to it"

Allowing someone to defend to the inside then come back to try and take the racing line is allowing them to have their cake and eat it and is basically allowing 2 blocks while not wording it that way.


You seriously want to end up with horse shit like this???? Good God, if F1 doesn't have enough problems.



I mean, there was more going on with that, mainly Brain Barnheart's bias, but yeah even Indycar said that was too far at the time so not the best example to produce

People see blocking as the only way to defend your position when in reality there's a lot more a mature racing driver can do. If someone has wandered off the racing line to defend, they still have the inside line and the ability to outbreak the car they are racing, they don't have a god given "leader's right" to then sachet back onto the racing line and expect the car alongside to disappear.

As safety standards got better, driving standards got worse. You wouldn't see Stewart or Clarke pulling this shit in the 60s, because if they did, someone died.
We can all point to where we think things started to go wrong, but in reality, the FIA not clamping down on Schumacher style blocking (I only call it that because for me, he defined that kind of aggressive driving at a time when it wasn't de rigueur, I'm in no way saying he INVENTED it..) is what legitimised it and led to people seeing it as normal today
It's not, and it never should be seen that way.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:07 pm 
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Chip Ganassi had a whinge about Helio and Dixon fluked another win

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:15 pm 
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I really hope that top team drivers keep doing those bonehead moves in low speed corners to crash, retire and let someone else than Mercedes, Ferrari or Red Bull win races

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