TBK-Light.com :: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada

RtN wrote:

To avoid FOM's claws, here is a Vine of a helicopter shot of Perez moving in the braking zone.

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

Why is everyone focusing on Perez? As Perez moves slightly left Massa moves significantly right. Perhaps he was caught out by an early braking Perez but that was Massa driving into the back of someone.

Croft has Tweeted that Perez moves back 5 places in Austria for causing the accident.

-----------------

Watch the Vine again. Perez goes from being 1 cars-width away from the white line to 1 1\2 cars-width before Felipe hits him. That's a deviation, and is dangerous behaviour in a braking zone.

Stewards judged that Perez "changed his racing line" which caused the contact.

RtN wrote:

That's absurd. PC gone too far. Half a car width is nothing and we've seen far worse deviations gone unpunished many a time.

Just because the stewards have made the call to punish Perez doesn't mean their assessment of the situation is correct. Massa made the error, end of story.

Stewards judged that Perez "changed his racing line" which caused the contact.

I hope this post doesn't trigger a big fight here(and I'm not a fan of either), but I start to think Hulk will never have a chance at a top team, if things continue as they are.

The top performances of Perez easily outshone the top performances of Hulk this year, imho.

about the crash, I agree with everything kals said about it. Imho, Perez was a double punished victim

Mäth wrote:

First career wins...

so why is Boutsen left out of that stat? That was one helluva race back then in 1989...

aerogi wrote:

Mäth wrote:

First career wins...

so why is Boutsen left out of that stat? That was one helluva race back then in 1989...

Ralf's first win was at Imola in 2001.

@ - RtN. We'll agree to disagree. Testimony and telemetry is an easy excuse when we're not included in the process of these penalties. There are many a time when we all agree that the stewards get things wrong. I'm fine with being proven wrong and my assessment is stated. Moving half a car width in a braking zone is barely anything (If you've raced at all then you'll known what braking from high speeds is like) and we've seen drivers do far worse, plus get away with it and the attacking driver not benefit. When you're on the last lap and defending a podium position you'll take defensive lines into corners. To me Perez took a normal (defensive) line and made no sudden movements in the braking zone outside anything ordinary in the circumstance

Massa made the error, end of story.

@Lotusman70: look at this, it's conclusive in my eyes// looks as if one jinks right as the other moves left to me

https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

Author:	De Cesaris fan [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
What a fantastic race. Montreal always delivers. Really pleased for Ricciardo but feel that Williams really could have won. Did Massa need that second stop? It's a shame Perez made that mistake at the end. His drive was absolutely faultless until then.

Author:	RtN [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
asshat wrote: RtN wrote: To avoid FOM's claws, here is a Vine of a helicopter shot of Perez moving in the braking zone. https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam Why is everyone focusing on Perez? As Perez moves slightly left Massa moves significantly right. Perhaps he was caught out by an early braking Perez but that was Massa driving into the back of someone. Felipe turns slightly right as, surprise!, the track bends to the right and Perez was making no effort to defend the inside or claim any piece of track except the bit directly in front of him. Until he got to the braking zone, that is. 'Cause, you know, making abrupt moves in the braking zone is common and acceptable driver behaviour.

Author:	kals [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	2014 Grand Prix du Canada
When I saw the onboard replay from Perez, he appeared to take a straighter line towards T1. That has been pretty normal at this race and circuit over many years. Perez did not make a sudden jerking movement towards Massa or another part of the circuit, which is consistent with changing lanes while in the braking zone. Perez is having braking issues but is holding / defending 3rd place on the last lap. It appeared to me more that Massa tried a mistimed do or die move and wiped them both out in the process. @ RtN - Felipe didn't just turn right but took a big tug toward the right. There was no progressive movement in the steering wheel that is consistent with that curve.

Author:	RtN [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
Croft has Tweeted that Perez moves back 5 places in Austria for causing the accident. ----------------- Watch the Vine again. Perez goes from being 1 cars-width away from the white line to 1 1\2 cars-width before Felipe hits him. That's a deviation, and is dangerous behaviour in a braking zone.

Author:	StefMeister [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
Stewards judged that Perez "changed his racing line" which caused the contact.

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Author:	nascarf1indycar [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
still massa should had passed those cars many laps before, he is a crappy driver, no balls to overtake, he just got a run on sergio after his car was badly worn... I bet williams is really frustrated with him, how long is his contract?

Author:	kals [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:19 pm ]
Post subject:	2014 Grand Prix du Canada
RtN wrote: Croft has Tweeted that Perez moves back 5 places in Austria for causing the accident. ----------------- Watch the Vine again. Perez goes from being 1 cars-width away from the white line to 1 1\2 cars-width before Felipe hits him. That's a deviation, and is dangerous behaviour in a braking zone. That's absurd. PC gone too far. Half a car width is nothing and we've seen far worse deviations gone unpunished many a time. Just because the stewards have made the call to punish Perez doesn't mean their assessment of the situation is correct. Massa made the error, end of story.

Author:	Karan [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
StefMeister wrote: Stewards judged that Perez "changed his racing line" which caused the contact. Good decision by the stewards, fair play. They must've reviewed the steering traces from Perez which I imagine confirmed what we saw on the replays too. Shame for both drivers to lose out on solid points though.

Author:	RtN [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
kals wrote: RtN wrote: Croft has Tweeted that Perez moves back 5 places in Austria for causing the accident. ----------------- Watch the Vine again. Perez goes from being 1 cars-width away from the white line to 1 1\2 cars-width before Felipe hits him. That's a deviation, and is dangerous behaviour in a braking zone. That's absurd. PC gone too far. Half a car width is nothing and we've seen far worse deviations gone unpunished many a time. Just because the stewards have made the call to punish Perez doesn't mean their assessment of the situation is correct. Massa made the error, end of story. You do not change your line in the braking zone. End of story. Perez did, the stewards (with all the testimony and telemetry) affirmed this, and the right driver has been penalised.

Author:	nightflight [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
StefMeister wrote: Stewards judged that Perez "changed his racing line" which caused the contact. + 5 for the dumbnut

Author:	Artur Craft [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
I hope this post doesn't trigger a big fight here(and I'm not a fan of either), but I start to think Hulk will never have a chance at a top team, if things continue as they are. The top performances of Perez easily outshone the top performances of Hulk this year, imho. about the crash, I agree with everything kals said about it. Imho, Perez was a double punished victim

Author:	kals [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	2014 Grand Prix du Canada
@ - RtN. We'll agree to disagree. Testimony and telemetry is an easy excuse when we're not included in the process of these penalties. There are many a time when we all agree that the stewards get things wrong. I'm fine with being proven wrong and my assessment is stated. Moving half a car width in a braking zone is barely anything (If you've raced at all then you'll known what braking from high speeds is like) and we've seen drivers do far worse, plus get away with it and the attacking driver not benefit. When you're on the last lap and defending a podium position you'll take defensive lines into corners. To me Perez took a normal (defensive) line and made no sudden movements in the braking zone outside anything ordinary in the circumstance Massa made the error, end of story.

Author:	nightflight [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
Artur Craft wrote: I hope this post doesn't trigger a big fight here(and I'm not a fan of either), but I start to think Hulk will never have a chance at a top team, if things continue as they are. The top performances of Perez easily outshone the top performances of Hulk this year, imho. about the crash, I agree with everything kals said about it. Imho, Perez was a double punished victim Hülkenberg for the results + points and Perez for the show. So i pick...

Author:	kals [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
aerogi wrote: Mäth wrote: First career wins... so why is Boutsen left out of that stat? That was one helluva race back then in 1989... Ralf's first win was at Imola in 2001.

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Author:	Mäth [ Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
kals wrote: aerogi wrote: Mäth wrote: First career wins... so why is Boutsen left out of that stat? That was one helluva race back then in 1989... Ralf's first win was at Imola in 2001. The file I uploaded was named "rdsfail.jpg", so that's the whole point

Author:	RtN [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:05 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
kals wrote: @ - RtN. We'll agree to disagree. Testimony and telemetry is an easy excuse when we're not included in the process of these penalties. There are many a time when we all agree that the stewards get things wrong. I'm fine with being proven wrong and my assessment is stated. Moving half a car width in a braking zone is barely anything (If you've raced at all then you'll known what braking from high speeds is like) and we've seen drivers do far worse, plus get away with it and the attacking driver not benefit. When you're on the last lap and defending a podium position you'll take defensive lines into corners. To me Perez took a normal (defensive) line and made no sudden movements in the braking zone outside anything ordinary in the circumstance Massa made the error, end of story. That's your opinion, and that's fine, but the only person who agrees with you is Niki Lauda. Perez changed his mind about defending the corner and braked much earlier than the car attacking him. Unless Felipe has hitherto unknown telepathic abilities he could not have expected Perez to do what he did, and considering how close he was at the time Perez started to drift away from the edge of the track, he could not have done anything about it.

Author:	kals [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
That's fine RtN but you could say the same the other way around. Unless Perez has hitherto unknown telepathic abilities he could not have expected Massa to do what he did. Like has been said by a couple of others, everyone is focusing purely on Perez and completely ignoring Massa's steering inputs just prior to the impact.

Author:	Karan [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
I think Martin Brundle has the best take on this. At first glance it looked like it was just Perez who moved to the left and so I felt his penalty was justified but having a change of mind now. It was the tiniest of jinks by both drivers but they left themselves no margin for error. @MBrundleF1 Quote: @Lotusman70: look at this, it's conclusive in my eyes// looks as if one jinks right as the other moves left to me https://vine.co/v/MD0BgJYVeam

Author:	RtN [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
I am sure that whoever Force India sent up to argue Perez' case would have pointed out Felipe's steering inputs, that is assuming that the stewards did not notice them on their own initiative. I assume that they came to the same conclusion I did; that if Perez had held his line relative to the edge of the track (i.e. he had followed the curve), Felipe's inputs by themselves would have not caused an accident.

Author:	Gaara [ Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Grand Prix du Canada
Well they were both called to see the stewards and I'd expect they have all the telemetry as well. They'll know a whole lot more then what we see on the telly.