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Why BTCC Is Best
https://www.tbk-light.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=4902		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Gaara [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Silly Season 2009-2010
jdh wrote:
LeonArtez wrote:
Maybe it is a idea to start a new topic regarding which 'touring car' series is more popular


Mods, able to split this discussion into a new thread?


Done.
Author:  jdh [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
lol at the thread title. 'Which is the best touring car series?' as the thread title with a poll of the major touring car series in the world would be better I think.
Author:  hedgey666 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
Of the Touring Car Championships available to UK television viewers I personally consider the BTCC to be by far the best. It's had it's off-years with only a handful of entries but the excitement produced on track most of the time is pretty much spot on. The driving standards are awful on occasion though with some drivers seemingly protected by TOCA and able to get away with all sorts of moves.

The DTM is hideously boring, I can't really see what anyone gets out of watching it, even with some big name drivers finishing their careers there. WTCC is pretty good occasionally but too many races are just parades of cars one after the other.

Can't really comment on V8 Supercars and South American stuff as I've not seen much of it.
Author:  racer69 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
The problem with the BTCC these days (and judging by the way Farfus barged Menu off the road in race 1 at Okayama, and was not penalised for it, the WTCC too) is that driving standards have largely been thrown out the window, and its become akin to banger racing.

I'm not suggesting draconian penalties like seen in V8Supercars, where many are too scared to make a move as even a slight error results in a penalty, but incidents like for example, Matt Neal in race 3 at Knockhill, should not be tolerated.

WTCC can be good, but the rules are so contrived with regards to rule breaks to make cars competitive...and the farce on the last lap of Macau in race 1 was a joke...

V8Supercars have the right idea in terms letting big powerful RWD cars compete, but it is hamstrung these days by too many common components, leading to follow the leader racing, and too much exclusivity with franchises.

Why can't someone produce a set of touring car rules with some variety, allowing both big cars and little cars to compete??
Author:  RtN [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
You obviously weren't watching in 2004.

Driving infringements are by and large punished these days. 2 drivers lost a win this year because they were deemed to have driven an opponent off the road. And others have received penalty points on their MSA license, which do rack up fairly quickly if you are a constant offender.

Beating and banging is all part of touring car racing. If a driver crosses the line between that and the motorsport equivalent of the professional foul, they are punished.

What is actually worse? The BTCC with fairly hands-off regulation or the DTM where regulation is so tight a piece of overtaking was actually penalised with a stop-go penalty this year?
Author:  kart99 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
For me, the BTCC is by far the best Touring Car series anywhere in the world. It produces far more entertainment than the DTM, V8 Supercars and pretty much any other form of racing on the planet. Okay, the contact factor might be slightly excessive, but that's Touring Car Racing. At least they are able to bump and barge without damaging the cars so significantly, they can't carry on a la DTM. More to the point, I recently watched the TC2000 series from Argentina, and while the racing is good, it isn't a touring car championship. You can't go to a showroom and buy a TC2000 car, which is what a Touring Car basically is, i.e. the race on Sunday, buy on Monday principle. Neither can the DTM. I'm guessing you can't buy V8 models of the cars that race in the V8 Supercars/New Zealand championship. I'm sure Scotty or someone car correct me if I'm wrong and I apologize if I am.

Therefore, it leaves only a number of championships that can actually be referred to as a 'Touring Car Championship,' i.e BTCC, WTCC, STCC DTCC, RTCC, PTCC and some others as well. Now, if we look at these particular championships, we can effectively eliminate the RTCC, PTCC mainly because grid numbers are low, television coverage is none existent (again someone can correct ,me if wrong), which leaves the DTCC, WTCC, BTCC and STCC. Each championship has it's own merits, for example the WTCC has manufacturers, same with STCC, but I just think that the BTCC produces more action, better thrills, and value than any other series. The television coverage wipes the floor with any of the other series and spectator numbers are increasing every year, nearer to what was referred to as the heyday. It also has someone who knows how to run a proper racing series.

Thats why the BTCC's the best.
Author:  kals [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
If you look at the calibre of driver that has participated in the BTCC over the years, by far and away it is greater than any other touring car series in the world. The BTCC also pioneered the Super Touring era which was then replicated across the globe. The racing is always very intense and often breathtaking. Unlike the DTM and WTCC you don't get manufacturers bitching constantly about unfair advantages, you have independant racing teams with passion fighting against their peers.
Author:  Gaara [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
Well there was a manufacturer in BTCC that constantly bitched about what they perceived as unfair advantages, which were actually them not building a car up to scratch, but they were ignored and promptly quit in a hissy fit and took their one make championship with them.
Author:  Eddington mains [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
jdh wrote:
The average attendance for the BTCC this season was around 39,000.


Possibly something to do with the country being on its financial knees this past 12months...

At £20 - £30 a head.. thats £80 to £120 for a family of 4... costly weekend on a tight budget!

most sporting events are down on attendance, football only manages to retain reasonable home crowds either because of the season tickets or reduced gate prices... but away visitors have been very poor ..

BTCC is the best though!.. Because it is :p
Author:  phil1993 [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
BTCC is best because every race is brilliant! Always some sort of great move or a crash. Whereas WTCC and DTM are just boring
Author:  EvilVendingMachine [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
I started watching the BTCC in 2008, and it definitely has the best racing out of any series i watch. WTCC was great for laughs this year though.
Author:  jdh [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
Eddington mains wrote:
jdh wrote:
The average attendance for the BTCC this season was around 39,000.


Possibly something to do with the country being on its financial knees this past 12months...


Actually 2009's attendances were up on 2008's. Which in turn were up on 2007's. Which were up on 2006's.
Author:  insanebrain [ Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
Quote:
I'm guessing you can't buy V8 models of the cars that race in the V8 Supercars/New Zealand championship.


You can buy both the Falcon and Commodore off the showroom floor with a V8 (5.4 in the Ford, 6L Chev in Holden). But the Aussie racecars use a NASCAR/Transam (ish) derived 5L, a control gearbox, ford 9 inch rear diff (the road cars have IRS), custom floorplan etc etc. So in a lot of respects they are custom built race cars but then I've never seen a 2 litre Seat or a BMW or others with a carbon fibre nose like fitted to the S2000 cars either. The NZ V8's have similiar setups (still live rear axle, old 5l motors) using cheaper parts.

What I am interested in, is what criteria does everyone use in judging the best series?
Already discussed has been crowd numbers (more to do with location than quality IMO) and amount of panel damage/passing. I guess visual appearance, sound and many others play a part. Opinions?
Author:  jdh [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
insanebrain wrote:
What I am interested in, is what criteria does everyone use in judging the best series?
Already discussed has been crowd numbers (more to do with location than quality IMO) and amount of panel damage/passing. I guess visual appearance, sound and many others play a part. Opinions?


A quick list of criteria I could think of:

Closeness of performance
Close racing and overtaking
Freedom of racing (i.e. no manufacturers like SEAT implementing team orders from the start of round 1 of a season)
Unpredictability
Ability to entertain for the whole race distance
Good tracks
Speed of the cars
Big names
Look/sound of the cars
Lack of constant meddling by people behind the scenes (such as the FIA playing with the ballast weights in the WTCC constantly)
Value for money
Fan access
Wider treatment of the fans
Race atmosphere/spectator numbers
Support races (more one for the product as a whole rather than the specific series)
Author:  Boxy Brown [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
BTCC owns.

Even in 2005 when some races only had 11 cars on the grid (including the shit green Lexus) it was still epic!
Author:  racer69 [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
RtN wrote:
Beating and banging is all part of touring car racing.


Only since the mid-90s.

Watch some of the racing from earlier, say some of the epic battles Soper & Rouse had in 1988, wonderfully close and exciting racing, and hardly touched eachother once. That to me is far superior to the driving standards of today with so much ramming and barging going in.


I take your point that more stuff is being punished, in the coverage in Australia we just get the races shown, not the post-race politics :)



scotty wrote:
V8 Supercars are based pretty much solely around Bathurst, as the IRL is based around Indianapolis.

V8 Supercars are relatively cheap to go to for a regular round - Winton last year it was $20 to get in to general admission, and another $25 to get access to the back of the pitlane (you could peer into garages, catch the drivers for an autograph)

Support series - have dropped off over the last few years. We have some great series in Australia (F5000, ARC, Aus GT, F3) which don't get a look in as support series for most events, they stick with the boring as bat shit events (Production Cars, Mini's, Historics). DVS and F-Ford are probably the only 2 support races i watch at events these days.

The non-enduro weekends are too long for my liking, however the sprint tyre idea is a great idea that is being poorly executed. Go back to the 3 race weekend plz.

Look and sound of the cars - by far 10/10, probably the best of any series. The liveries in V8 Supercars are excellent, (BTCC are very bland and boring) and the sounds (apart from events where they're forced to stick to dB guidelines like Winton, Sandown) are great.

Fan access - at Bathurst in 2006 i was able to mingle with about 10 drivers, and i got autographs from about 30 of them.

Big names - Whincup, Lowndes, Skaife, Ingall are all big here, but rather obscure anywhere else. I will expect Mark Webber to follow Alan Jones' lead and enter the series when he retires though.

Spectator Numbers - ive never been to the Adelaide event but apparently it is fucking amazing in terms of atmosphere, just like Bathurst

Compare with Numbers

Engines
V8 Supercars - 5.0L Pushrod V8's, producing 620-650hp running on E85 Ethanol, 7500RPM rev limit, 6 speed Seq. Box
BTCC - S2000 - 2.0L 4cyl, producing 300hp, 8500RPM rev limit
WTCC - S2000 - as above
TC2000 - Very similar to S2000 standards, but not a S2000 series.

Manufacturers (2009)
V8 Supercars - Ford, GM Holden
BTCC - BMW, Seat, Honda, Vauxhall, Chevrolet, Ford
WTCC - BMW, Seat, Chevrolet, Lada
TC2000 - Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, Toyota, Renault, Fiat

Cost
V8 Supercars - $600,000 AUD a car, $130,000 AUD an engine
BTCC - €168,000 (S2000 standard)
WTCC - €168,000 (S2000 standard)
TC2000 - (Unknown)

Races Per Year
V8 Supercars - 14 events, 26 races
BTCC - 10 events, 30 races
WTCC - 12 events, 24 races
TC2000 - 9 events, 3 endurance series events.

Marquee Race Tracks (Best 3 Race Tracks)
V8 Supercars - Bathurst, Adelaide, Phillip Island
BTCC - Brands Hatch, Silverstone, 3rd one is a toss up between Oulton and Thruxton.
WTCC - Macau, Pau, 3rd one i cant decide.
TC2000 - Santa Fe, Interlagos, Bueno Aires


Good post, sums it all up nicely
Author:  Cheeveer [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
STCC had BMW, Seat, Chevrolet, Opel, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen and Peugeot this year. Uses the S2000 regulations so the same prices as WTCC and BTCC. I guess the crowds are around 15,000 per round, but you have to consider that Sweden is a pretty big country and that not that many people live here. The tracks are great, short but fun, but they lie in remote places of the country often. 18 races over 9 events on 6 tracks. The racing was extremely close and unpredictable this year. In my opinion better than BTCC.
There are some really good drivers that don't get the international recognition that they deserve (Richard Göransson, Thed Björk, Robert Dahlgren, Robin Rudholm, Tommy Rustad, Fredrik Ekblom). Mattias Ekström ran there (and won) before moving to DTM.
Before each race there is a free grid walk. It's free to walk around the pits. General admission is around 200 kronor I believe.

STCC is the best. :flag:
Author:  RtN [ Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
Cheeveer wrote:
STCC had BMW, Seat, Chevrolet, Opel, Volvo, Alfa Romeo, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen and Peugeot this year.


More manufacturers =/= better racing, at least not automatically.

Cheeveer wrote:
There are some really good drivers that don't get the international recognition that they deserve (Richard Göransson, Thed Björk, Robert Dahlgren, Robin Rudholm, Tommy Rustad, Fredrik Ekblom). Mattias Ekström ran there (and won) before moving to DTM.


You see, here's the thing, drivers only get international recognition when they win series outside of their own nation. Ekstrom is internationally recognised because, surprise suprise, he went to Germany and won there, before dominating the RoC.
Author:  phil1993 [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
BTCC also has good, if not great, tracks :flag:

Also, BTCC have great drivers: Turkington did a round of WTCC a year or so ago and got a podium. Giovanardi is a multiple champion in touring car land and he hasn't exactly turned up and dominated. Yvan Muller had to fight hard in BTCC for his title, yet he went to WTCC and won pretty quickly... There's also less retardation in BTCC than other tin top series, sadly this year we had a few silly decisions
Author:  Cheeveer [ Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why BTCC Is Best
RtN wrote:
Cheeveer wrote:
Cheeveer wrote:
There are some really good drivers that don't get the international recognition that they deserve (Richard Göransson, Thed Björk, Robert Dahlgren, Robin Rudholm, Tommy Rustad, Fredrik Ekblom). Mattias Ekström ran there (and won) before moving to DTM.


You see, here's the thing, drivers only get international recognition when they win series outside of their own nation.


You mean like Colin Turkington?
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